So even if your literally impossible claim were actually correct, it’s still completely irrelevant, because craving an impossible paradise is suffering in itself – and that befalls only the living, not empty void obviously. — Zn0n
induction — Zn0n
And why do you think you have the right to throw others in suffering because you believe in something that allegedly will happen at some point.
How many victims is throwing down the meat-grinder to achieve something that is a) impossible and b) completely unnecessary justified? Is that number bigger than 0 for you? If so why? — Zn0n
The linguistics of bird-song is also a place where we can find similarities to ourselves. Although both
birdsong and human language are hierarchically organized according to particular syntactic constraints, bird-song structure is best characterized as phonological
syntax, resembling aspects of human sound structure. Many species of birds share with humans a capacity for vocal learning, a crucial factor in speech acquisition. — MSC
Human language is distinct from all other known animal forms of communication in being compositional. Human language allows speakers to express thoughts in sentences comprising subjects, verbs and objects—such as ‘I kicked the ball’—and recognizing past, present and future tenses. Compositionality gives human language an endless capacity for generating new sentences as speakers combine and recombine sets of words into their subject, verb and object roles. For instance, with just 25 different words for each role, it is already possible to generate over 15,000 distinct sentences. Human language is also referential, meaning speakers use it to exchange specific information with each other about people or objects and their locations or actions. — https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5525259/#:~:text=Human%20language%20is%20distinct%20from,past%2C%20present%20and%20future%20tenses.
To indulge this tangent- I still think there is a difference in the language-use/function in a human vs. animal. Generally we are using it to communicate to others AND self-talk ideas/concepts. Birds can maybe communicate about surroundings, mating, territory, etc. A lot of it is involuntary. Even primates, if forced in research situations, can communicate maybe a couple hundred words, but with no syntax, and again, not very natural. None of this adds up to the kind of language abilities humans have. I wouldn't even call what other animals have language proper, per se, but a communication system. But, I don't care about the exact definition as much as how it functions. Just on a cursory search, what I'm getting at is something like this: — schopenhauer1
Are animals not aware of the need to acquire food and shelter? Or is it just an instinct that makes them do it. — Sir2u
So as I was saying with MSC, I recognize that there are capacities in other animals that make them well suited to surviving in their environment. They may even have communication systems. The kind of thought that says, "I hate having to eat my kibble..I hate having to play fetch with this guy.. I hate having to go for a walk all the time..." seems not in the repertoire of dog psychology (or other animals for that matter). That is more-or-less what I'm getting at. Humans, on the other hand, can resent what they are doing at any moment. We have, seemingly endless generation of ideas (conceptual thinking), some of which can be evaluative as to what we must do to survive, keep comfortable, and entertain ourselves. — schopenhauer1
Yes, very good point, all these cushy biases (“what an opportunity to be alive :)”) are shielded by their own brutal, bias-like enforcer-mechanism: group-think and what strikes me as fascist tendencies (“purge the outsider, there is only the group, and the group is everything”), but “collectivism” describes this as well. — Zn0n
What I’m now struggling with regarding children is how often they scream and cry.
My neighbors created two, and one is a toddler now, and he screams and cries out pretty much every single day, often even several times. Some people may think once a day doesn’t even sound too much, but when was the last time you screamed and cried because you were in such agony.
It’s a torturous sound and I can’t help but project my own suffering that is caused by his screams onto him and think -STFU!-, but know at the same time he is in so much suffering that he screams out and cries because of it, and nobody takes it serious, for one because of how “normal” and “expected” it is that children constantly severly cry.
And I really wonder how people have more than one child. One child may be because of naivity or some the-human-race™-must-be-dragged-out-indoctrination that they fell for, but I hear their screams muffled through (relatively thin) walls, so for them it’s even worse.
And yes they get the “positive parts” of some helpless creature being completely dependent on them and can be bossed around as they see fit. But how does that balance. — Zn0n
Ignoring what a ridiculous statement that is in context to the comment you replied to, are you saying white (male) humans enslave? Because that's blatantly racist (and sexist).
Ironically it's infact racism and sexism that is one of the excuses that was and is used to enslave others. — Zn0n
The tendency to enslave others has nothing to do with skin color but level of psychopathy/sociopathy and/or how much they obey a cruel system. — Zn0n
The kind of thought that says, "I hate having to eat my kibble..I hate having to play fetch with this guy.. I hate having to go for a walk all the time..." seems not in the repertoire of dog psychology (or other animals for that matter). — schopenhauer1
That is more-or-less what I'm getting at. Humans, on the other hand, can resent what they are doing at any moment. We have, seemingly endless generation of ideas (conceptual thinking), some of which can be evaluative as to what we must do to survive, keep comfortable, and entertain ourselves. — schopenhauer1
My dogs loved climbing over the fence and running around the neighborhood. For almost a week after I put barbed wire on top of the place they were climbing out 3 of them refused to be petted and would not even come near me. They, like most kids, got over the sulks and we are friends again. Is that more instinctual behaviour?
I think that the problem is not whether they can reason or not but are we smart enough to recognize reasoning when we see it. — Sir2u
To extend the point so as not to go down rabbit-holes.. I also recognize animals may have preferences. For example, wanting to be in the shade on a hot day. Liking certain foods over other ones. That is not the same as having the evaluative capacity to resent a situation that one has to do. — schopenhauer1
:lol: :rofl:If you want to take your own advice, you may wanna start here. — Zn0n
Also, I think your indignation is inappropriate here.
If we were to step back, can we admit that humans have certain capacities/mental functions that other animals almost certainly do not? If we cannot admit that, then we can't go much further. It's like asking, "Can we admit that humans don't have the functional capacity to fly without technology?" and you said.. that's being a bigot against humans. — schopenhauer1
. We have, seemingly endless generation of ideas (conceptual thinking), some of which can be evaluative as to what we must do to survive, keep comfortable, and entertain ourselves. — schopenhauer1
Then I said that the reason most people had slaves was because of economical reasons not because of hate and cruelty as you said. And the article says basically the same thing, most slavery was about having work done without having to pay for it. — Sir2u
We have, seemingly endless generation of ideas (conceptual thinking), some of which can be evaluative as to what we must do to survive, keep comfortable, and entertain ourselves. — schopenhauer1
The topic was about the ability of animals to reason, which I certainly do believe a lot of animals can do rather well. — Sir2u
Why would a wolf want to invent a house? They already know how to make burrows to live in. Are we to ascertain from the fact that no wolf has ever built what we consider to be a proper house proof that they cannot reason.
Would you consider the fact that birds build their nests in power distribution towers to be a reasoned action, an instinctual action or a simple possibly stupid mistake? — Sir2u
They are probably more bored than you or I. — MSC
Which means they also have some concept of fun. — MSC
My conclusion is this;
You can't speak another animals language, whether you're human or not, if the language is conveyed in sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch. Then how in the hell would you or anyone else know whether or not animals pass complex or abstract concepts between each other? Do dogs not maybe learn how another dogs day was by sniffing each other out, or even how yours was? If I got 26 different perfumes could I not tell you a story, in Scent-English just by waving a series of silk clothes in front of your face, in the right order after teaching you which scent applies to which letter of the alphabet? I could even add punctuation Fragrances. It would be hard to learn at first but that's no different than learning how to write. It's just a matter of conditioning. — MSC
anthropomorphizing — schopenhauer1
Did I not just mention Body language and the sort of information that can be imparted just by using sign language? I didn't realise you were a cryptographer who has spent all his time in the wild and has proven animals ciphers don't exist through peer reviewed journals. Would you like to link me to your work?linguistically generative way humans do — schopenhauer1
that would just strengthen the underlying claim.
If there existed a gorilla that in their own self-reflective way "said" to itself "I fuckn' hate stripping these leaves all day to eat", a chimp who said, "OH man, just another day of chasing this monkey to smash its skull in so I can eat it.. such a grind, why can't there be another way?" That just means more creatures in the same boat. — schopenhauer1
Again, this debate of animal communication is not really the debate I am having. Can a chimp discuss the details of Kant's view of metaphysics, or whether today's political climate is crazy? No. Resenting doing the very activities that keep us alive, make us more comfortable, and entertain us, in other words, existential matters, seems to be in the realm of humans. No I have not talked with a penguin to see if this is the case, nor have I dialoged with a koala to see their take on the matter. — schopenhauer1
This is just all forms of anthropomorphizing. — schopenhauer1
If you can tell me why a chimp would even be interested in Kant's views on metaphysics or even his ideas on morality then I might be able to explain why I would not discuss these things with him.
But there again. I could not get my neighbors to discuss him either so they must be chimps in disguise. As I mentioned earlier, negros were not considered humans for exactly the same reasons. And look how wrong the intellectuals were about that. — Sir2u
Other animals might feel pain, but they don't know to the extent of resent not being in a more optimal state. — schopenhauer1
One thing I would appreciate you so much for is if you can justify one thing for me. Why do you think it is immoral for you personally to not have children? Is it just that you think everyone should not do it or is there more to it than that? What are the personal reasons in your eyes. I might not agree with them, just to warn you. — MSC
- as for the question of resentment that was still not stated in your OP, but you have since shifted the discussion from "dislike" to resentment - compelling evidence observed that some animals have a capacity to feel resentment and other complexities which refutes your claim otherwise. It seems that animals experience things with less persistence/duration, but still have the capacity and do experience complex emotion but lack the ability to ruminate or philosophize (at the highest current degree - humans) - which to my mind, is not a requirement to experience extreme dislike i.e., OP. — Cobra
Can animals have thoughts of an existential nature? That is the gist of the thoughts I am discussing. — schopenhauer1
I'd maybe accept evidence of my dog trying to comfort me in a strange almost empathetic way when I myself am feeling Existential dread or anxiety. I could maybe accept as evidence, wild animals who save other animals from death. Including saving us. — MSC
Yes, you can have depressed animals, but not ones that wish they were never born. Not ones that know they don't live in a utopian world. Not ones that can at any moment, hate what they have to do to get by.[/u]
So where does that leave humans? The existential animal that just keeps on going, knows we don't have to, but does it anyways.. is not driven by real instinct in decisions other than the limits of fear of pain and the unknown. A fish swims in its tank, and doesn't know or care why. A tiger chases a zebra and doesn't know and care why. — schopenhauer1
Can animals have thoughts of an existential nature? That is the gist of the thoughts I am discussing. — schopenhauer1
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