• Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Compatibilism is an example of the old "bait and switch" sales tactic applied to moral philosophy. The bait is that you can have your moral cake (responsibility stemming from free-will) and Humean-Kantian causality (time sequence by rule) too. The switch is that the kind of "free will" that is compatible with time sequence by rule does not support human responsibility.

    To be responsible for an act, one must be the origin of that act. If the act is predetermined before we were born, as determinism claims, clearly it does not originate in us or anything we did. So, compatibilism is fraud.

    The Compatibilist Notion of Free Will

    Further, the idea that "free will" means we can do or choose what we desire (or something similar), reflects a surprising lack of reflection and analysis. If there is free will, it comes into play when we are faced with choices. We have to make choices when we desire two or more mutually incompatible outcomes. Option 1 advances the fulfillment of one set of desires, and option 2, that of another set of desires. So, whatever choice we make will tend to advance some motivational factors at the cost of others. No choice is what we desire simplicitur.

    We can't evade this logic by bring in some utility function (money, libido, action potential, etc.) to determine what we most desire. This is because motivational factors incommensurate. We cannot reduce them to a single utility function or measure of value. No amount of cash can equate to being unable to breathe. No amount of free breathing will pay for food and shelter.

    Since the 19th century many philosophers have sought to clothe their theories in such mathematical garb, but we simply can't describe the indenumerable and unmeasurable numerically, for any proposed number has no determinate relation to what they seek to describe. So, we can't say that we choose whatever has the highest utility. All we can say is that what we choose, we value most. This value, however, is not mathematical, but conative. Our experience of choosing is not mathematical, but rational. So, no calculation can show a choice to be "most valued," "most desired," before we choose it.

    The So-Called Problem

    If free will is incompatible with strict determinism, and determinism is a consequence of causality, then surely we cannot be the cause of our acts. Hence, whether of not determinism is true, we cannot be the cause of, and so responsible for, our acts. Thus, there is no free will in a sense that would make us responsible.

    This argument is fallacious, resting on an equivocal use of "cause." Clearly, if we are the cause of, and so responsible for, our free acts, we cannot be using "cause" in the Humean-Kantian sense of time-sequence by rule. What other sense is there?

    The problem is that most modern philosophers are too lazy to study the history to philosophy. It shows that for over 1800 years, philosophers distinguished two kinds of efficient causality: accidental (Humean-Kantian time sequence by rule) and essential (the actualization of potency).

    We all know that if you plant tomato seeds, you are the cause of the tomato plants that subsequently sprout and that there is a rule linking the first event (planting of a certain type of seed) to the second event (the subsequent sprouting of the corresponding plant). This is an example of accidental causality. If you've read Hume, you also know that there is no necessity linking the first event to the second. Since we have two separate events, there is always the possibility that an event may intervene between them to disrupt the expected sequence.

    Because accidental causality has no intrinsic necessity, it is a strange basis for arguing that whatever we choose, we choose of necessity, i.e. that we have no free will that would be the basis for moral responsibility.

    Those who have done their homework/due diligence know that in his Metaphysics Aristotle distinguished a second kind of causality, which is the kind that makes us responsible for our considered acts. This is essential causality. Aristotle's paradigm case is a builder building a house. Of course, the cause is the builder building, and the effect is the house being built. Aristotle notes that the builder building the house is identically the house being build by the builder. (These are identical because they are merely different ways of describing the same event.)

    Since there is only one event, and not two as in time sequence by rule, no event can intervene to disrupt this kind of causality. Since the cause and effect are inseparable (we can't separate building and being built), cause and effect are linked by an intrinsic necessity. While the prior physical state of (a pile of building materials) does not necessitate the form of the finished house, something being built necessitates an act of building.

    If we think about Aristotle's example, we see that it is simply an instance of a potential (of the materials to become a house) being actualized by an agent (the builder). So, any actualization of a potency by an agent is an instance of essential causality.

    We can now see that free choices are not uncaused choices. They are the actualization of one of several possible courses of action by the moral agent. So, causality and free will are compatible, just not the kind of causality modern philosophers think of.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    causality and free will are compatibleDfpolis

    So you are a compatibilist... Welcome to the club!
  • Mww
    4.9k


    The Kantian sense of causality, which is actually rules sequenced in time, is the empirical sense of it, and does not apply to his moral philosophy:

    “...Man considering himself in this way as an intelligence places himself thereby in a different order of things and in a relation to determining grounds of a wholly different kind when on the one hand he thinks of himself as an intelligence endowed with a will, and consequently with causality, and when on the other he perceives himself as a phenomenon in the world of sense (as he really is also), and affirms that his causality is subject to external determination according to laws of nature....”

    So, within the last 1800 years, there is a third causality, which is called freedom. Regardless of the validity assigned to it by informed respondents, it is on the philosophical record. By the use of this causality, man is responsible for his practical moral determinations a priori, and thereby responsible for the objective manifestations of them.

    Just sayin’.......
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    It's the incompatibilist notion of "free will" that makes no sense as far as moral responsibility goes.

    If free will is just not being determined, then every electron has free will. Are electrons morally responsible?

    No, of course not.

    It's something about the particular way that our choices are determined that makes us morally responsible for them or not.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    No, I am not a compatibilist in the standard sense.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    The Kantian sense of causality, which is actually rules sequenced in time, is the empirical sense of it, and does not apply to his moral philosophyMww

    I was speaking of how Hume and Kant contributed to the contemporary use of "cause," not of Kant's moral philosophy.

    Also, it is not rules that are sequenced, but events that are sequenced by rules. There is a rule sequencing the kind of seed planted and the kind of plant sprouting.

    on the one hand he thinks of himself as an intelligence endowed with a will, and consequently with causality, and when on the other he perceives himself as a phenomenon in the world of sense (as he really is also), and affirms that his causality is subject to external determination according to laws of nature....”Mww

    There is not a hint here that he is using "causality" equivocally -- which he is. Rather he leaves the reader with the impression that our moral causality is univocally a causality "subject to external determination." Kant used this confusion to support his thesis that reason is faced with irreconcilable antimonies. It is not. The whole basis of his Critique is a tissue of confusion.

    So, within the last 1800 years, there is a third causality, which is called freedom.Mww

    There is no reason to think that freedom involves anything other than the actualization of our human potential, and so a species of essential causality.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    f free will is just not being determined, then every electron has free will. Are electrons morally responsible?Pfhorrest

    This is a common confusion with regard to quantum theory. Quantum theory sees all unobserved processes as fully deterministic. It's only when we stick our finger into a quantum system and perturb it in some unknown way that probability is invoked.

    Still, I agree that freedom is not indeterminism. It is rather that the acts we, as moral agents determine, are not determined prior to our choices. That is what it is to be a moral agent.

    It's something about the particular way that our choices are determined that makes us morally responsible for them or not.Pfhorrest

    I agree. As I said, to be responsible, we need to be the ones determining our choices.

    We must be very careful to note that the kind of "causality" which compatibilists are discussing is not the kind that makes moral agents responsible.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    This is a common confusion with regard to quantum theory. Quantum theory sees all unobserved processes as fully deterministic. It's only when we stick our finger into a quantum system and perturb it in some unknown way that probability is invoked.Dfpolis

    Wavefunctions evolve deterministically, but which classical state of that superposition we become entangled with is random from our perspectives. You only save determinism in quantum theory if you look at the superposition of all timelines of the universe: within any given timeline, inherently unpredictable things happen every time anything interacts with anything else.

    It is rather that the acts we, as moral agents determine, are not determined prior to our choices.Dfpolis

    The particulars of the process by which we end up choosing how to act is what makes us morally responsible agents or not. Whether the outcome of that process is in principle predictable from the prior state of the universe or not is irrelevant.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Wavefunctions evolve deterministically, but which classical state of that superposition we become entangled with is random from our perspectives. You only save determinism in quantum theory if you look at the superposition of all timelines of the universe: within any given timeline, inherently unpredictable things happen every time anything interacts with anything else.Pfhorrest

    There are no classical states in quantum superposition, only the sum of eigenfunctions correlative to eigenvalues, and the set of eigenfunctions superimposed is not a physical property, but the result of our choice of a complete mathematical basis.

    The equations of quantum theory are fully deterministic. It is only measurements, which involve the system to be measured interacting with a measuring system whose initial state is unknowable, that are probabilistic.

    Unpredictable is not indeterminate. Determinism is a consequence of the laws of nature. Predictions require a knowledge not only of the laws of nature, but of the boundary conditions to be applied, aka, the initial state. And, any attempt to determine the initial conditions requires an interaction with a measuring device whose initial state is, again, unknown.

    Superpositions, whether coherent or not, do not cause indeterminacy. This is because superpositions are the sum of deterministic wave functions, and so fully deterministic.

    Finally, interaction terms in quantum theory are nonlinear and so incompatible with superposition.
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    any actualization of a potency by an agent is an instance of essential causality.

    We can now see that free choices are not uncaused choices. They are the actualization of one of several possible courses of action by the moral agent.
    Dfpolis

    So how do we go about actualising a potential? Talk me through the neurological process.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    Another apriorist giving this dead horse yet another beating.
  • Olivier5
    6.2k
    I am not a compatibilist in the standard sense.Dfpolis

    I never said you were a standard one but you are one. I don't believe that determinism makes any sense, so I define myself as a nondeterminist compatibilist. That too is unorthodox.
  • Mww
    4.9k
    and so a species of essential causality.Dfpolis

    ......and therefore not the “accidental causality” of your “Humean-Kantian time sequence by rule”. Which is all I intended to convey, and by which the equivocation in the quote makes explicit. You know...”on the one hand” as opposed to “on the other hand”?

    Anyway....carry on.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    It's something about the particular way that our choices are determined that makes us morally responsible for them or not.Pfhorrest

    :up:
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    So how do we go about actualising a potential? Talk me through the neurological process.Isaac

    You are assuming, quite irrationally, that Chalmers' Hard Problem is not a chimera, but has a solution. In other words, you have faith that intentional acts are reducible to physical acts. I have previously shown that, for a number of sound reasons, they are not. (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4732/intentional-vs-material-reality-and-the-hard-problem). If you find my reasoning there flawed, feel free to explain why you believe so.

    You are, however, quite right that for intentional acts to have physical effects they must modify the operation of neurons. How is this possible? In my paper "Mind or Randomness in Evolution" (Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies (2010) XXII, 1/2, pp. 32-66 -- https://www.academia.edu/27797943/Mind_or_Randomness_in_Evolution). I show that the laws of nature (as opposed to our approximate descriptions of them, the laws of physics) are intentional, not material. realities. (The analysis begins on p. 2 of the pdf with the subheading "Logical Propagators.") Again, if you have objections, to my analysis, please post them.

    For elements to interact they must act in the same theater of operation. A three kg mass cannot win a logical argument. That is why the argumentum ad baculum is a fallacy. Similarly, a logical proposition cannot, by itself, move a three kg mass. So, for choices to be effective, they have to act in the intentional theater of operations and not by exerting physical forces. However, since the laws of nature are intentional, there is no reason why our committed intentions, our choices, may not modify them.

    It is our everyday experience that our commitments have physical effects. We decide to go to the store, and perform the motions required to get us to the store. More irrefutably, we discuss our choices. We could not do this physical act if our choices could have no physical effect -- which is why epiphenomenalism is patently false.

    Still, many naturalists are not content with everyday experience, but say they demand controlled experiments. There are so-many experiments showing that intentions can control physical processes that meta-analyses of them calculate Z's of 18.2 (Radin and Ferrari, 1991 -- odds of 1.94 x 10^73 to 1) and 16.1 (Radin and Nelson, 2003 -- odds of 3.92 x 10^57 to 1). A single 12 year experiment (Jahn et al., 2007) produced a Z > 7.

    Sill, even though many of these studies conformed to criteria laid down my skeptics in advance, naturalists, like climate change deniers, are unwilling to accept the science. How could they when it contradicts their sacred faith?

    So, we have a confluence of theoretical analysis, everyday experience, and controlled experiments that show that human choices have physical effects.

    Still, I'm unable to say precisely how intentionally modified laws of nature change the intersynaptic discharge of neurotransmitters. Of course, neuroscientists can't say how each of the 50 or so neurotransmitters does either. So, I can't consider this a serious objection.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Another apriorist giving this dead horse yet another beating.SophistiCat

    Please do not be so hard on naturalists, they have to deal with so much evidence that conflicts with their faith. We need to be understanding.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    We seem to be agreeing.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    You know...”on the one hand” as opposed to “on the other hand”?Mww

    On the other hand is on the other hand, but it is used to argue that there is an "antimony" involving univocally predicated "causality," and not that there is an equivocal use of "causality." If you think otherwise, quote Kant defining essential causality under any name, or saying that it, and not Hume's two-event causality, is involved in moral agency.
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    Another apriorist giving this dead horse yet another beating.SophistiCat

    Yes, but I was on a train and bored. Occasionally it's interesting to take a swipe at the apriorist piñata and see what kind of word-confetti sprays out.
  • Mww
    4.9k
    If you think otherwise, quote Kant defining essential causality under any name, or saying that it (...) is involved in moral agency.Dfpolis

    I can do both, but how about one at a time:

    “....The will is a kind of causality belonging to living beings in so far as they are rational, and freedom would be this property of such causality that it can be efficient, independently of foreign causes determining it; just as physical necessity is the property that the causality of all irrational beings has of being determined to activity by the influence of foreign causes....”

    “...Every rational being reckons himself qua intelligence as belonging to the world of understanding, and it is simply as an efficient cause belonging to that world that he calls his causality a will....”

    Don’t you see I’m tacitly agreeing with the general principles implied by your OP, only taking exception with your iteration of the “Humean-Kantian” aspect of causality?
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    LOL Radin. I knew that he was a crackpot, but that was more from the way reasoned more than anything else. Makes sense though.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    “....The will is a kind of causality belonging to living beings in so far as they are rational, and freedom would be this property of such causality that it can be efficient, independently of foreign causes determining it; just as physical necessity is the property that the causality of all irrational beings has of being determined to activity by the influence of foreign causes....”Mww

    I see none of the defining characteristics of Aristotle's essential causality in this quotation. Do you? Kant is only claiming the will causes differently than Humean causality, without explaining how or why. Agreement demands belief, not reasoned assent.

    “...Every rational being reckons himself qua intelligence as belonging to the world of understanding, and it is simply as an efficient cause belonging to that world that he calls his causality a will....”Mww

    The same is true here. Recall the nature of the differences. (1) Accidental causality, Humean-Kantian time sequence by rule, always involves two events, not one as in essental causality. (2) Accidental causality starts a process that may be interrupted by intervening events. Essential causality does not. (3) Essential causality acts concurrently with the actualization of its effect. Accidental causality does not.

    Neither quotation notes either of these differences. As presented in these two texts, Kant's argument is merely special pleading: The way we cause in willing is not subject to the determinism of Humean causality.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    So how do we go about actualising a potential? Talk me through the neurological process.Isaac

    Likewise :up:

    There has to be some underlying reason why those most keen to discuss human will always seem to be those most averse to describing it as it appears to us.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    In my paper "Mind or Randomness in Evolution" (Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies (2010) XXII, 1/2, pp. 32-66 -- https://www.academia.edu/27797943/Mind_or_Randomness_in_Evolution).Dfpolis

    Damn! You couldn't make it one sentence in without regurgitating the patented creationist misrepresentation of evolution?

    Philosophical naturalists claim macroevolution shows order emerging by pure chance.

    Yeah no.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k


    My bad, I thought it was a proper journal, but:

    The refereed Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies, a major resource for college-level instruction, especially honors courses, builds on the classical paideia of educating the whole person. This educational endeavor aspires to restore Judeo-Christian ethical and intellectual foundations that all can cherish.

    it's a religious propaganda thing. Obviously you're going to regurgitate creationist misrepresentations of evolution!!! :facepalm:
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Damn! You couldn't make it one sentence in without regurgitating the patented creationist misrepresentation of evolution?Kenosha Kid

    Obviously you are continuing to criticize what you have not read. The paper affirms all the science in the contemporary evolutionary synthesis. If you want to criticize me, at least find out what I am saying first. As it is you come off as a Jr. Trump.
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    Radin. I knew that he was a crackpot, but that was more from the way reasoned more than anything else.SophistiCat

    Yeah, the analysis in that 1991 paper is an absolute gem.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    it's a religious propaganda thing. Obviously you're going to regurgitate creationist misrepresentations of evolution!!! :facepalm:Kenosha Kid

    Did you attend Trump University, or are your prejudices home-grown?
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    My bad, I thought it was a proper journal, but:

    The refereed Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies, a major resource for college-level instruction, especially honors courses, builds on the classical paideia of educating the whole person. This educational endeavor aspires to restore Judeo-Christian ethical and intellectual foundations that all can cherish.


    it's a religious propaganda thing. Obviously you're going to regurgitate creationist misrepresentations of evolution!!! :facepalm:
    Kenosha Kid

    Did you not read my refutation of the whole thing recently published in the Journal of Middle-Earth Studies?
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Yeah, the analysis in that 1991 paper is an absolute gem.Isaac

    I am open to the possibility that I may have been misled in my research, but not by one-liners. If you have a concrete criticism, spell it out.
  • Dfpolis
    1.3k
    Did you not read my refutation of the whole thing recently published in the Journal of Middle-Earth Studies?Isaac

    It is amazing how the conversation ceases to be rational when I challenge cherished beliefs. If you think I am in error, make a case -- otherwise you come off as a bigot.
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