An argument could be made that philosophy and the Arts have been dead for quite a while now, and that we are in a cultural dark age.

We have been living in postmodern times. What happens now? The end of belief as we know it, or the evolution of a new way of looking at things as we know it? The future is in our hands, and perhaps the philosophers will determine the future, amidst the shouts of fear and despair. It may be up to us to create a new vision of hope.

Is an explosion in slow motion still an explosion? Or a slow-motion fall off a cliff into an abyss still a fall? Imo that is us. I'm old enough to be relatively confident that I will not live long enough to have to endure - survive - the greater trials that are coming. But I am sure they are coming, and coming for increasing numbers of people. As they have already come, in terms of poverty at least, for about 3.5x10^9 of the people on the planet.

Even our language provides a clue: I just referred to "people on the planet." Fifty yeas ago that usage would have been the sign of a joke. And any serious reference then to a group affected by anything would have by town or city or state or at most region or country. But now the world is so crowded and fraught that it is right and correct to think in terms of issues as planet-wide, effecting all life everywhere.

And the hard science is that is going to get quite a bit worse before that trend line even has a chance to bend upwards again, if it can, and that bend will then occur at the nadir of human experience.

I have read of human population stabilizing at about 11 billion souls in the near future. Imo, when the ice melts and the seas rise, the number of people will settle at around 2 billion - or fewer! 100 years, 150? Give or take? Getting there and being there will be hell on earth, and for how long?

A lot of debate is about lockdown for social interaction, but the question is what impact will it all have for the arts, culture and the philosophical underpinning underlying Western culture and other cultures? Are we at the brink of a collapse or a new, transitional point in culture and human thought? — Jack Cummins

What would it even mean for a culture to collapse? Disappearance of it's ideas, it's rituals, it's language? None of that seems to be happening. To be sure a bunch of rituals are under strain, but a lot is also still going fine.

Will it be a transitional point? Probably. It'll certainly have an impact. How big I think noone can say. My guess is people will mostly treat it like just another economic crisis. The significant uptick in the death rate is not concentrated enough to really affect communities as a whole.

Are we at the brink of a collapse or a new, transitional point in culture and human thought? — Jack Cummins

Were we there in 1918-1920?

A lot more people died then and the response was, well, quite the same.

Besides, If the Black Plague didn't collapse our culture, why would this pandemic?

Only a Mass Extinction Event like an Asteroid hitting us similar that killed the dinosaurs would put us on the brink of collapse.

Of course I realise that there have been times of large deaths in former ages but this is the biggest we have known in our lives, and I think it is likely to have the impact of both World Wars.

The second world war heralded dramatic changes in thinking. The reason why I think this is an issue for philosophy is that it may be that this is an arena for deconstruction and reconstruction of values. Most of all , I believe that philosophers need to be involved in debates about who we are and where we are going.

Independent of the world pandemic, there are questions about ecology and the environment and surely these should be at the forefront of philosophical agendas. Surely, while philosophy is involved in looking at beliefs and values it cannot be in ivory tower blockaded from the pressing concerns facing humanity.

Of course I realise that there have been times of large deaths in former ages but this is the biggest we have known in our lives, and I think it is likely to have the impact of both World Wars. — Jack Cummins

Come now. 2 million have died in this pandemic, so far. It isn't over, but it doesn't look like we will even approach a quarter of the 50 million who died in the 1918 influenza pandemic-- which came, remember, at the conclusion of a world war which killed around 20 million. Neither western culture, nor anyone else's, was rocked to the core by these events. 85 million people died in WWII, and life has continued on--albeit with some major regime changes (China, India, and of course Germany and Japan).

Us old folks are about done with the world, so we aren't going to see many major cultural upheavals in our time remaining -- at least, we hope like hell that we won't. Young people, on the other hand, are doomed to see many major changes, and their children still more. The Ancient Chinese Curse--may you live during interesting times--is your fate.

Which of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse will run you all down--war, famine, plague, or global warming is up for grabs. Take your pick.

Cultural collapse will come when the older generation (whichever generation that is) can not successfully transmit a coherent culture to its children because that culture has been rendered obsolete and irrelevant for the newly existing conditions.

There is a nice science fiction book which illustrates this quite nicely: Earth Abides by George R. Stewart. In this 1949 story, 99.9% of the world's population is dead from a highly infectious, highly lethal infection. The story focuses on a remnant living in Oakland, California. The infection has burnt itself out; the survivors are healthy; there is a cushion of stored food and matériel in stores and warehouses. There are libraries. They survive.

The main character, and narrator of the story, hopes to pass on the culture that existed before the world-killing pandemic struck. He can't! It doesn't work. The children who have been born since the pandemic are not interested in that unknowable past. The narrator comes to understand that the children must, of necessity, live in the present time and can not use the cultural resources of a world that has ceased to exist.

Perhaps in 2100, 2150, or 2200 adults will be wringing their hands over their children's disinterest in the riches of the passed--but now totally irrelevant culture of the late 21st century and before. Why learn proper English when England is disappearing? for what purpose would one learn mathematics, when the task at hand is to find enough to eat? When one can expect to live, on average, say, for 40 years, what is the point of recovering the past?

Are we at the brink of a collapse or a new, transitional point in culture and human thought? — Jack Cummins

Humanity has been "on the brink" for eons. The Fall of the Roman Empire __Gibbon 1776 ; The Decline of the West __ Spengler 1926. As a species in a wild world, we live dangerously. But so far, we have survived our own follies, and nature's wrath. If history is any guide, we won't be aware of the "Fall" until much later, in retrospect. Plagues come & go, Pandemics rise & fall, but life goes on. Looking backward, pessimists see doom & gloom, while forward-looking optimists see wonderful opportunities. Both are part right and part wrong, but only time will tell which. :smile:

We might not recognize the fall until later -- true enough, Rome gradually subsided as an imperial HQ over time, and there was no headline, "The Roman Empire collapsed yesterday!"

We might be more aware of an ecological collapse, because it will have more immediate, concrete consequences. At least in the beginning of the predicted eco-collapse, we will still be able to monitor conditions on a world-wide basis, and will receive regular feedback on land and ocean harvests, temperatures, ocean rises, storms, death tolls, energy supplies (from whatever source), and so on.

Life in the Roman Empire was complex enough that disruptions in trade or harvests caused large problems many miles away. Life in the present world is far more complex, and we have more ways of monitoring what complex events are happening. What may happen, though, is that our technological systems will fail in a critical way and we will suddenly lose our capacity to monitor world-wide events. Then, civilization collapsed or not, we may be in the dark.

I don't think this everyone being forced to stay home will do so much as alter the philosophical underpinnings of wester culture (whatever those are). I think this whole thing will cause a lot of cultural changes, for example online universities will no longer be laughing stock and employers will find efficient ways to allow employees to work from home so we will likely see working from home increase in popularity.

I was not actually implying that the death rate was so high that the whole of civilisation was going to be wiped out, or that being asked to stay at home in itself would be a source of collapse in itself. But I am wondering about the changes because although 'collapse' was perhaps an over dramatic word I do believe that previous pandemics probably did have far reaching effects, and the virus is not over yet.

In a way, there had already been major changes in the last few years, such as more and more being done online. Major retail chains were beginning to collapse for many years now. If anything the lockdown has probably just speeded this process.

But I do think that there is a lot more going on. Poverty is likely to be a major part of it. When people become too poor some probably won't be able to afford any devices to go online. If universities did only manage to operate online it is questionable whether people would choose to join in that way because they pay for the experience of university life and not just a degree.

But I think the subtle change is people's whole perception, especially fear and anger. I am certainly hoping that life as we know it doesn't change completely but it has occurred to me that tensions could lead to war between nations.

However, just one thing I will stress is that I was not implying that the pandemic alone could trigger a cultural collapse. But if anything I should be pleased by some reassurance that we are not on the verge of collapse, because that is my fear.

Surely, while philosophy is involved in looking at beliefs and values it cannot be in ivory tower blockaded from the pressing concerns facing humanity. — Jack Cummins

The most dramatic and imminent pressing concern are the thousands of large (way bigger than Hiroshima) hydrogen bombs aimed at major population centers around the world. Philosophers at every level are utterly disinterested. See this forum or any philosophy website for evidence.

Philosophy is dead, a joke, just a nerd mental masturbation game with little relationship to reality. As a hobby, ok, I like to masturbate too. It's a scam that anyone gets paid to do it.

it is worrying that philosophers are disinterested in such developments as the major hydrogen bombs.

In the past, there was a lot of dialogue between philosophers and leaders about such issues. In particular, Bertrand Russell played a key role in the CND movement.

However, just one thing I will stress is that I was not implying that the pandemic alone could trigger a cultural collapse. But if anything I should be pleased by some reassurance that we are not on the verge of collapse, because that is my fear. — Jack Cummins

In the US, there are sizable groups of people who are planning, and stockpiling, for a Race War or Civil War. And if Trump loses the presidential election, they may be motivated to use guns rather than ballots to bring about the regressive change they think is necessary : i.e. back to when the superior race, and/or religion, was in control of society. If they succeed, against high odds, the current social & ecological decline may continue for the near future.

But a similar crucial situation occurred in 1861. Yet, although it was a devastating moment in history, and the plantation economy collapsed, civilization as a whole did not fall apart. I can't assure you that hard times are not immanent, but I am confident that human culture will survive. My model of history is similar to Hegel's dialectic of contradictory forces (e.g. Left Wing vs Right Wing worldviews) that are held together by a singular teleological "spirit". Fortunately, most people tend to be moderate & conciliatory in their views, and inclined to favor to the idea of social & cultural progress, rather than regress. Besides, modern societies are too homogeneous to split neatly into Left vs Right, or White vs Black, or Christian vs Islamic.

For those who see no signs of progress in history though, despair may be a rational attitude. But Steven Pinker, in his book, Enlightenment Now, concluded that : “Though I am skittish about any notion of historical inevitability, cosmic forces, or mystical arcs of justice, some kinds of social change really do seem to be carried along by an inevitable tectonic force". Another term for his "tectonic force" is Teleology. I'm inclined to agree that, despite the ups & downs of history, cultural evolution has not yet reached its peak, and the end of the world is not near. :cool:

Tectonic : constructive

Progressophobia : http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page9.html

Natural Teleology : http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page59.html

End of World : An Assyrian clay tablet dating to around 2800 B.C. bears the inscription: “Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.”
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/10/22/world-end/

How about treating the covid pandemic as a transformative force for culture instead of a destructive one - out goes the Western handshake and in comes the Eastern namaste (India), the bow (Japan) and the palmed fist (China). A small step in greeting gestures but a giant leap in culture.

every man wants to write a book — Gnomon

Very small point: since the Assyrians didn't write books, I wonder what the tablet - if the quote is genuine - actually said.

Very small point: since the Assyrians didn't write books, I wonder what the tablet - if the quote is genuine - actually said. — tim wood

The link in my post investigated the history & validity of the quote, and others like it. Personally, I'm not concerned with what was "actually said" in cuneiform marks on clay tablets. It's the general feeling of exasperation with human nature and our imperfect world that resonates with me. Even so, I remain optimistic about the continuing progression of evolution, with or without homo sapiens. :smile:

“Ten Notable Apocalypses That (Obviously) Didn’t Happen” : https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ten-notable-apocalypses-that-obviously-didnt-happen-9126331/

End of World Prophecies : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

Cataclysms in World Cultural Evolution : https://bioone.org/journals/journal-of-coastal-research/volume-35/issue-6/JCOASTRES-D-19-00035.1/Disaster-Geoarchaeology-and-Natural-Cataclysms-in-World-Cultural-Evolution/10.2112/JCOASTRES-D-19-00035.1.short

"Vanity[a] of vanities, says the Preacher,
vanity of vanities! All is vanity."
___Solomon, Ecclesiastes

But I am wondering about the changes because although 'collapse' was perhaps an over dramatic word I do believe that previous pandemics probably did have far reaching effects, and the virus is not over yet. — Jack Cummins

'Change' and not 'collapse' would likely be the appropriate way to look at this.

The first thing is to realize that people and societies take diseases quite calmly, as they actually do with natural disasters. As the name implies, the cause isn't human, so we won't start bitching so much as we do if the cause is purely from the actions of other people. If we complain, we complain only about the response of other people and governments to the natural disaster. The second fact is that people adapt as best as they can do with these kinds of issues. Thirdly, even if we are in an economic depression, it simply isn't a collapse in a way that our society will stop functioning. The governments around the World do function, they do pay the salaries of the public sector employees and do provide the services and so on.

So let's put things into context: Just imagine how absolutely striking the difference in just about everything would be if let's say there wasn't no pandemic, but in the present political turmoil over 200 000 people would have been killed this year, a similar amount that has been killed in the pandemic. That would be ten times more than the annual homicide rate in the US or twice the number that have been killed in Mexico in the drug wars in the last two decades. This kind of instability would easily have a similar effect on the economy as the lock-down has had as shops would also close and people would hunker down, avoid large gatherings etc. in such a dangerous situation. Then your argument about a 'collapse' would be in a totally different category. As only a few thousand killed in an spectacular terrorist attack changed totally the mood of the country and did have an effect on people, it is easy to understand that such violence inside the country would change a lot.

Starting from how Americans would feel about their nation.

Cultural collapse will come when the older generation (whichever generation that is) can not successfully transmit a coherent culture to its children because that culture has been rendered obsolete and irrelevant for the newly existing conditions.

This is the critical point, when the technological pillars of our world cease to function and are cast aside. For example the internet, or electrical computers. If for example we descend into a hundred years of warring groups, internet servers will rapidly become compromised, education could easily become compromised, we might rapidly lose the capability to operate such systems. So how can such knowledge be preserved in such a way that it is not lost entirely, not long I suspect. Over the a hundred years of war infra-structure like electrical generation, oil refining, vehicle production could all be lost.

Once we reach the point where this knowledge is lost, there is a period of a few generations perhaps in which the knowledge is still retrievable. This is critical, because if this opportunity is not taken then the loss becomes profound and we could descend into another dark age and have to discover all the knowledge and technology we have lost again from scratch. Such a dark age could easily last a thousand years and when we progress out of it, we might not develop a society underpinned by a compassionate religion which our current one has. So it could be quite an ugly place.

It sounds really scary, like the mythical(? ) fall of Atlantis. Surely, there is a possible way forward for humanity to go forward without collapse and I wonder if the philosophers can be the saviours, instead of leaving this to the religious and political leaders.
A lot of the readers of this site may see me as a fool for getting into such discussion rather than the the more clever analytical debates. Maybe I am a fool but I am inclined to think that a back to basics concern about where humanity is going should be on the philosophical agenda.

There are probably gradual declines, such as what the Romans experienced in the last century of the Roman Empire. They did notice it -- they were not frogs in the slowly heating kettle -- and they adjusted. The dark ages that followed wasn't all that dark, and the teaching/learning cycle was maintained in various places. There were also technical innovations during the post-Roman medieval period. None the less, most of the Greco-Roman culture was lost over time.

Then there are abrupt collapses, such as happened from ancient wars or maybe the invasion of the mysterious 'sea people' around 1200 B.C.E. While that lowered the final curtain on a number of civilizations, the pieces were picked up fairly quickly - in a few centuries.

Whether and how the elaborately engineered technology of the present could be restarted if it once stopped, I do not know. The operating knowledge wouldn't disappear overnight, but restarting the massive energy system (oil, for instance) would be very difficult. Literacy could certainly be maintained, and we have lots fo books. Books last a long time as long as they don't get wet.

The first thing is to realize that people and societies take diseases quite calmly, — ssu

The Roman Empire recorded a number of severe pandemics and famines which killed off a significant percentage of the population, without it causing a collapse, or even a significant decline. The Black Plague in Europe didn't cause a collapse either.

Of course people would have preferred to miss a particular plague, but disease continually carried off friends and family, so longevity wasn't typical. All of which is NOT to say people were casual about losing parents and children or indifferent to death.

The accepted transcription of this seems to be

With the kids sing out the future
Maybe kids don't need the masters

but the Pillows' English can be hard to parse. Anyway, listen to The Pillows and rediscover hope:

I do think the Covid_19 situation could be a possible source of transformation. In fact, this is my biggest hope.

I think it could go either way, negatively or positively. We are at a critical juncture and I suppose that is why I raise questions.

I am struggling to grapple with my daily quest, trying to transform the negative into the positive. This same personal alchemical healing quest may be what is needed on a global level.

Perhaps the Covid_19 situation is the wake up call we all needed to question and transform our whole approach to life.

Are we on the verge of a cultural collapse?

Just look around you. What do you see? If it's not hegemonic, then the culture has been long dead.

“The most worthless of mankind are not afraid to condemn in others the same disorders which they allow in themselves; and can readily discover some nice difference in age, character, or station, to justify the partial distinction. Tolerance and diversity brought Roman civilization to its knees.”

Diversity is the decay of civilization. If your society doesn't know anymore what it is, some other culture - more strong and willful - will prevail in its stead...

Of course people would have preferred to miss a particular plague, but disease continually carried off friends and family, so longevity wasn't typical. All of which is NOT to say people were casual about losing parents and children or indifferent to death. — Bitter Crank

Before people prayed in the Church sermon that "disease and pestilence" wouldn't come. Not anymore, but now we have seen they are still there.

Yet this is true what you say. It is also true that plagues and famines caused by draughts have indeed shaken the support of the ruling regime and have been causes to political instability, yet they can only give a part of the explanation for the events. A full on crisis or conflicts do have needed that political narrative also.

I listened to The Pillows and really liked the song. I googled them and they were around in 1989. My favourite band as a teenager was The Alarm, but I listen to all kinds of alternative rock and music as well as philosophy can be a powerful agent for inspiration for social change. Actually, I am a bit psychedelic and really like The Flaming Lips. I also recommend The The's album Mind Bomb.

I am getting a bit carried away from philosophy, but perhaps I can be forgiven because I began this thread. We need inspiration to avoid getting depressed by the whole cultural collapse.

Wasn't Plato very concerned that subversive music and poetry would disrupt his ideal republic? So, go right ahead and post about music.

Here's a song about the eve of destruction from 1965. When I first heard this song back in that bucolic summer, I thought it was pretty urgent. However, 55 years later we're still on the eve of destruction.

BTW, I listened to Srap's video above; I liked it.

Yes, I like the song Eve of Destruction, as well as Bob Dylan, and the whole 60s music scene is very inspiring. Dark times give rise to creativity. While I do still find new music I like, there has not been much innovation since 2000. Maybe the dark times will herald a new youth subculture equivalent to flower power, punk, goth etc.

Fortunately, most people tend to be moderate & conciliatory in their views, and inclined to favor to the idea of social & cultural progress, rather than regress. Besides, modern societies are too homogeneous to split neatly into Left vs Right, or White vs Black, or Christian vs Islamic. — Gnomon

What about Red vs Blue?