bourgeoisie as a willing partner of the elite — ssu

The bourgeoisie ARE the elites.

"The elites" is too ambiguous.

Today, it's much easier to leverage a mob via Facebook then it is to bend standing institutions to your will. — Echarmion

There's no 'bending' involved - these institutions will willingly do what's needed. Basically, you have much too much faith in your insitutions. They're all basically already fucked, and the only question is one of degree. The US is the proverbial frog in boiling water - it's been slow roasting for so long most of its citizens don't realize just what a hellhole of a plutocracy they already live in. Which is why they can fantasize about some impending 'civil war' which would mark some kind of definitive change. Americans are largely a population of compliant, scared, and oblivious hicks who would be quite happy with whatever political arrangements there might be so long as no one bothers them too much personally.

What tiny pockets of 'resistance' that would arise would be crushed by your internal security forces while being cheered on by your 'thin blue line' crowd. The point is that the imaginary spectre of 'civil war' serves nothing more than to disable action in the present, in expectation of some messianic violence which is a fantasy of where the 'real political change' will play out. Except it's not in some imaginary future, it's here and now where your miserable lives are being decided upon.

But if Biden wins and turns it around, restores normality, what will the proud boys do? Just slink back under their stone?

So apparently QAnon has been largely spread by the senior VP of technology at Citigroup.

At least he got fired for it.

But if Biden wins and turns it around, restores normality — Punshhh

Normality? Biden and his ilk put the US on this path to begin with.

Normality? — StreetlightX

"Normality" is relative. In one sense, things have never been "normal". In another sense (the one I take Punshhh to be using here), "normal" is just the status quo ante Trump. And there's a whole spectrum in between.

That's funny - considering many conspiracy theories appear to revolve around bankers manipulating masses.

Things have been 'normal' in the US for quite some time. Trump just made content match form.

He's simply the projected fantasy of liberals made flesh. The idea of some external corrupting force whose defeat would affirm all the more the goodness and 'normalcy' of the system as it was before. The fantasy of 'civil war' is cut from the same cloth. Some big upheal outside the 'normal' run of things, beyond which, the system is just fine.

Normality? Biden and his ilk put the US on this path to begin with.

Ok, not normality, perhaps, a return from insanity to more of the usual. Anyway, will they slink back under their stone? Or is the genie out of the bottle?

So apparently QAnon has been largely spread by the senior VP of technology at Citigroup.

At least he got fired for it.

Looks like he was fooling around and when it took off, got into some data mining.

QAnon is big here in the UK now, the've even been protesting in Trafalgar Square. Once someone falls down that rabbit hole, the're almost unreachable.

My whole point is that you don't need "Proud Boys" running around in the streets make America more of a fascist-inclined shithole than it already is. It's already there in the institutions which preside over it.

The PB are largely an internet meme anyway. A couple of hundred losers who got into the limelight because their founder shoved a butt-plug up himself to 'own the libs', among other things. Again my point is to forget all this shitty spectacle. It's there to distract you. And the fantasy of more spectacle - "civil war" - what, by a fatass nation that can't get off the couch long enough to give a shit about their own dead black neighbours? - isn't helping either.

So its divide and secretly rule perhaps. I just didn't see how the recent (previous) administrations where driving it (consciously at least). Rather I saw it as a system set up to drain wealth from the population into the coffers of the elite. This would require prosperity for it to be maintained. To veer off into fascism would jeopardise this flow.

There's nothing secret about it. It's been happening for the last 40 years right in front of your faces. And there's no dichotomy between the capitalist plutocracy the US is and the fascist state its lolling it's way into. The latter would in fact uphold the former in a far more effective way.

The latter would in fact uphold the former in a far more effective way.

Perhaps a pernicious creeping fascism would work. The problem I see is with consent, it will have to be done in a way that the people think they are freely giving their consent. I can see it happening as an internal thing going on within the minds of individual citizens.

The bourgeoisie ARE the elites. — Pfhorrest

The who live in the borough, craftsmen, artisans, merchants and other urban dwellers aren't the elite. Today small business owners, mid-level managers, lawyers working in small partnerships, pharmacists and doctors with a private practice aren't the elite today.

Never heard of the Petite bourgeoisie?

Rather I saw it as a system set up to drain wealth from the population into the coffers of the elite. — Punshhh

I see a system set up to create asset inflation, which then creates huge wealth inequality. And that has been policy. This should be obvious from the fact that when we have a global depression, the S&P 500 is at an all time high now.

I see a system set up to create asset inflation, which then creates huge wealth inequality. This should be obvious from the fact that when we have a global depression, the S&P 500 is at an all time high now.

Yes, add this to mass consumerism creating wage slaves, then we're there.

The asset inflation is a big deal in the UK at the moment, as I pointed out in the Brexit thread. It is done through property in the UK. The housing stock has not kept up with demand for over 40 years, resulting in house price inflation. This results in the middle classes and the rich reaping the rewards. Many areas have seen over 1000% increase in value over the period.

Unfortunately we are now in the predicament that this is a bubble just as we are descending into a depression caused by Covid and Brexit. It will shake things up a bit though. The wealthy are worried, the poor aren't that bothered because they haven't got much to lose. Those who don't own property (who missed out on the benefits of the inflation) are not that worried. The people in the middle (a large group), who are not wealthy, but do own a house, are in big trouble. And of course, the rich will be laughing all the way to the bank.

The asset inflation is a big deal in the UK at the moment, as I pointed out in the Brexit thread. It is done through property in the UK. The housing stock has not kept up with demand for over 40 years, resulting in house price inflation. This results in the middle classes and the rich reaping the rewards. Many areas have seen over 1000% increase in value over the period. — Punshhh

As you noticed, in the UK there is more physical demand for houses as your population has rapidly grown, as the following graph shows:



Yet housing not keeping up with this isn't the cause for asset inflation. Housing prices going up because of excess demand is the natural response how the market mechanism works. It provides an incentive to build more houses.

However, with asset inflation there is another phenomenon present. Asset inflation happens when the financial sector can give longer loans on lower interest with less own collateral needed, which makes then the prices spike up. People. with the same income as earlier, can now afford buying a more expensive house.

Imagine if people had to pay 60% of the price of a house in cash from their own savings immediately. Few could do it and the housing prices would collapse.

Unfortunately we are now in the predicament that this is a bubble just as we are descending into a depression caused by Covid and Brexit. — Punshhh

The elites didn't let the bubble burst during the financial crisis and they are desperately trying to let it correct even now. That is the actual policy. We have to remember, that the interest rates are at an all time low in written history now.

Bank of England base rate, now 0,1%:


This is the real policy problem: the bursting of this bubble would mean deflation, and that has been taught to be as the worst possible thing to happen. Well, it's the worst possible thing to happen if you have debt. And those who really have debt are the very rich.

Looks like the only way to keep going in pro-fascism America is to hire your own fascists.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/11/man-shot-dead-in-denver-during-rival-left-and-rightwing-protests

organ printing!

Blame it on the media?

An NBC News affiliate, KUSA-TV, said on its website that the man taken arrested for the shooting was a security guard hired by the television station to provide protection to its crew.

“It has been the practice of (KUSA) for a number of months to hire private security to accompany staff at protests,” the station said.

Likely the way America's new "civil war" will transpire.

Here's an idea... If you're going to go over-the-top on fake tan, do the backs of your hands as well.

People. with the same income as earlier, can now afford buying a more expensive house.

Yes, although it has gone a stage further, the housing market is like a ladder as you sell your small house, you buy a larger one because you have the profit from the last house, and then a bigger one after that. Until perhaps the gain is more than you would earn in a lifetimes salary. Also, if you inherit a valuable house which your benefactor bought when prices were really low, you get a foot up onto the ladder. This alongside an ideological decision by successive Tory Governments to stop building social housing 40 years ago and rely on the private house builders to provide the neede housing has exacerbated the problem further. As you say the population has grown by a few million, largely from the new EU accession states since 2004. This issue has been one of the drivers for the Brexit vote.

The elites didn't let the bubble burst during the financial crisis and they are desperately trying to let it correct even now. That is the actual policy. We have to remember, that the interest rates are at an all time low in written history now

Yes, we now have a perfect storm on the horizon.

The latest Times investigation into the president’s tax data and other records found that more than 200 companies, special-interest groups and foreign governments had patronized Mr. Trump’s properties, funneling in millions of dollars, while reaping benefits from him and his administration.

“As president, Mr. Trump built a system of direct presidential influence-peddling unrivaled in modern American politics,” writes an investigative team that has been covering the president’s finances and taxes for almost four years. — New York Times

Key Findings

The who live in the borough — ssu

That may be the etymology of the word but you know that’s not its meaning in this context. In this context it means the capital-owners, in contrast to the laborers.

Never heard of the Petite bourgeoisie? — ssu

You contrasted the bourgeoisie with the elites. If you had instead contrasted the petit bourgeoisie with the bourgeoisie proper I would have agreed with you. I think Marx unfairly ignores the true middle class that he ought to be championing, those who have capital enough that they don’t have to labor extra to service debt, but not so much capital that they can profit from just owning it and have others do their work for them. Owner-operators = employee-owned businesses. That should be the ideal he wants to elevate the proletariat to.

That may be the etymology of the word but you know that’s not its meaning in this context. In this context it means the capital-owners, in contrast to the laborers. — Pfhorrest

The Bourgeoisie would be close to upper-middle class. Those people who indeed do have actually capital, at least once in older age they have paid their debts to the bank.

. I think Marx unfairly ignores the true middle class that he ought to be championing — Pfhorrest

I think the counterargument would be that in the time of Marx there wasn't a true middle class.

Perfect hanging. To be done quickly, expeditiously, like taking out the trash.

That's how the left typically portrays the right, quite like the classical view of the bourgeoisie as a willing partner of the elite in suppressing the lower classes, especially the working class. The view has roots in traditional leftist thinking. — ssu

This is how the left portrays left-wing populism. I specifically mentioned the underclass (immigrants or minority populations).

Yet in societies people rarely displace others... — ssu

Really? I've been displaced from two jobs by offshoring myself.

I think the main reason is now days more about transfer payments and income distribution, then fears of crime etc. Few might fear immigrants taking their jobs or corporations using cheaper foreign labor. However I think it's better to view as a separate agenda as not only populists can have those opinions. — ssu

Well, I was talking about right-wing populism.

https://news.yahoo.com/taking-page-authoritarians-trump-turns-151748832.html

Apparently Trump wants the State Department to release full unredacted versions of all the emails from Hillary Clinton's private mail servers to the public.

The private mail servers that were such a big deal because classified information stored on them might get compromised.

Compromised as in, made available to people without proper clearance to see it.

People like the general public.

Whom he is now ordering all that information be released to.

What?