This idea of the absolute square is important. It is how we get from the non-physical wavefunction to a real thing, even as abstract as probability. Why is the wavefunction non-physical? Because it has real and imaginary components: u = Re{u} + i*Im{u}, and nothing observed in nature has this feature. The absolute square of the wavefunction is real, and is obtained by multiplying the wavefunction by its complex conjugate u* = Re{u} - i*Im{u} (note the minus sign). Remembering that i*i = -1, you can see for yourself this is real. We'll come back to this. — Kenosha Kid
The back screen is a macroscopic object that cannot be treated precisely with quantum mechanics. — Kenosha Kid
The back screen is a high-entropy object compared with the electron. That is, at any time, it may occupy one of hundreds of thousands or millions of microstates: particular configurations that are energetically equivalent to one another. At one instant t', a position on the screen r' may not admit an electron because it already has one there. At a subsequent instance t'', it might admit an electron at r'. The screen will explore these microstates in a thermodynamic way. i,e, in the same way that a box of gas will have different but energetically equivalent configurations of gas molecules one instant to the next. — Kenosha Kid
Because the electron's birth and death are the true boundary conditions of its wavefunction! — Kenosha Kid
I can say that the concepts employed here are deficient, showing a lack of understanding of the concepts. — Metaphysician Undercover
A moving body has velocity, mass, and momentum according to Newtonian principles, but it does not have "energy". — Metaphysician Undercover
We understand radiant energy, such as radiant heat, through its absorption, not through an understanding of the process of radiation. — Metaphysician Undercover
I believe the macroscopic/microscopic division is not an adequate representation of the real divide. — Metaphysician Undercover
Conventional wisdom tells us that the wave formulation is far more advanced, providing a much higher degree of understanding of the reality of the situation, so we ought to dispense this conception of empty space with bodies or particles moving around, and replace it with a consistent wave model. — Metaphysician Undercover
You cannot represent a photon or electron as being emitted. — Metaphysician Undercover
If the pattern is something that "builds up" then the pattern isn't the result of one electron, but many over time. One electron going through every ten seconds makes one dot on the screen every ten seconds that eventually builds up the pattern over time. So each electron behaves like a particle and the relationship between all the electrons is a wave, not that each electron is a wave, or else you'd get the pattern with the first electron. There would be no "building up" if each electron was a wave.If the voltage of the cathode is reduced such that only one electron fires out, say, per ten seconds, eventually the same pattern builds up. From this we deduce that each electron is a wave. — Kenosha Kid
If the pattern is something that "builds up" then the pattern isn't the result of one electron, but many over time. One electron going through every ten seconds makes one dot on the screen every ten seconds that eventually builds up the pattern over time. So each electron behaves like a particle and the relationship between all the electrons is a wave, not that each electron is a wave, or else you'd get the pattern with the first electron. There would be no "building up" if each electron was a wave. — Harry Hindu
This must be judged from within a quantum theory, with additions and subtractions of course, so I will focus on the parts of your response that fall within that scope. — Kenosha Kid
This is worth treating. In 1900, things were thought to be either particles or waves. The blackbody radiation spectrum and quantised atomic orbitals turned that on its head: waves were behaving like particles; particles were behaving like waves. It was surprising, hence the "wave-particle duality paradox'.
There is no paradox. There is no preferred basis set for describing waves except for that of the operator a particular measurement device is described by. At one extreme, plane waves -- Eigenstates of the momentum operator -- have well defined momentum and no defined position, but occupy all of space. At the other, Eigenstates of the position operator have well-defined position but no defined momentum. Everything else lies in between. — Kenosha Kid
The double-slit experiment begins with an electron with a well-defined position and, after measurement, ends with an electron with a well-defined position. These need not be precise, though they are typically treated as such. In between, the electron spreads out as a wave, but eventually must reduce, either deterministically or spontaneously, to something more localised. — Kenosha Kid
The concept of emission is pretty uncontroversial in quantum mechanics. — Kenosha Kid
The end-game being an attempt to put to bed the 'quantum equals non-determinism' myth. — Kenosha Kid
Since the problems of quantum theory are a manifestation of the conceptualizations employed (as I described above), then we have to step outside quantum theory to get a handle on these problems. — Metaphysician Undercover
As I stressed in the last post, your claim that there is a particle, called an electron, which exists during the in between period, and "spreads out as a wave", is completely unsupported by the conceptualization of "energy". — Metaphysician Undercover
It really makes no sense to attempt at a validation of a temporal continuity of a single electron by introducing different forms of the electron , like "stroboscopic wave-packet" — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, if that's what you want to discuss, then perhaps you can describe how spontaneous emission and random fluctuations are consistent with determinism. — Metaphysician Undercover
LOL. Just read what you wrote, bro.I'm afraid not. If there are no other electrons to interfere with, and the electron does not interfere with itself, there is no possibility of interference effects. — Kenosha Kid
You're saying the "beam" is wave and interferes with itself, so if an electron is a wave, then it can interfere with itself.A brief reminder: when a cathode fires electrons at a screen with two slits, beyond which is another screen, the pattern that builds up on the back screen is bands of light and dark, the dark bands being where few or no electrons strike, the light bands being where more strike. From this we deduce that the electron beam coming from the cathode is a wave.
If the voltage of the cathode is reduced such that only one electron fires out, say, per ten seconds, eventually the same pattern builds up. From this we deduce that each electron is a wave. — Kenosha Kid
LOL. Just read what you wrote, bro. — Harry Hindu
The "beam" is the relationship between the individual electrons and according to you is a wave. If the same pattern is created no matter how long the interval between each electron, then it isnt the electron that is a wave because one electron would create the pattern if it were a wave like the "beam" of electrons. — Harry Hindu
I dedicated quite a portion of the OP to spontaneous emission — Kenosha Kid
Photon emission/absorption is another example of a reversible process. — Kenosha Kid
The former has a determinate cause, the latter may be spontaneous. — Metaphysician Undercover
The fact that you can treat the two mathematically as one reversible process does not justify your claim that the two are one reversible process. — Metaphysician Undercover
The second experiment doesn't show that each electron is a wave. It shows that electrons don't appear to move through, or are governed by, space-time like other particles, or maybe it is our view of space-time that is skewed. — Harry Hindu
Sure it does. It shows that your OP is unfounded in asserting that electrons are waves, and is not the rest of your OP built upon that faulty premise?Maybe, but that does not fall within the scope of the OP, which concerns quantum mechanics, not alternative theories to quantum mechanics. — Kenosha Kid
Seems to me that you've admitted that consciousness is involved in some way to say that it has imaginary components, or where else in reality do imaginings exist? Is it me, or are scientists getting really lazy with their use of language?This idea of the absolute square is important. It is how we get from the non-physical wavefunction to a real thing, even as abstract as probability. Why is the wavefunction non-physical? Because it has real and imaginary components: u = Re{u} + i*Im{u}, and nothing observed in nature has this feature. — Kenosha Kid
Sure it does. It shows that your OP is unfounded in asserting that electrons are waves, and is not the rest of your OP built upon that faulty premise? — Harry Hindu
You propose a complete misrepresentation of the human conceptualization of radiant energy. — Metaphysician Undercover
Both the retarded wavefunction going from t -> t' and the advanced wave coming from t' -> t may explore whatever places they want, but only in the trajectories where one is the conjugate of the other do their trajectories become real. — Kenosha Kid
Probably a stupid question: if the mapping from a wavefunction to it times its complex conjugate always produces a purely real variable, and that the "advanced wave" is defined by the mapping of this wavefunction to its complex conjugate, how could this be taken as evidence of a coincidence of physical mechanisms (two processes with the same result) when it's actually two names for the same mapping? — fdrake
Ideas about the nature of radiation that are different to quantum mechanics may well be fascinating, but not relevant. — Kenosha Kid
What is it that i obviously want to discuss, KK? The only thing that I've been discussing is the faulty assertions in your OP, but you can believe that I'm talking about something else if it makes sleep better tonight.As stated previously, the OP is regarding QM, and nothing outside that framework. Feel free to start a thread on the subject you'd obviously prefer to discuss. — Kenosha Kid
What is it that i obviously want to discuss, KK? — Harry Hindu
Something wherein electrons are not waves, i.e. something that is not quantum mechanics. And by all means, but elsewhere. — Kenosha Kid
You're confused. Its your OP that fails to show that electrons are waves. You've only been able to show that the beam is a wave. So if a requirement of QM is a belief that electrons are waves, then your OP isn't about QM either. That's all I'm saying. — Harry Hindu
Hats off to Kenosha Kid. — jgill
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