Enacting that would basically bypass the electoral college, and in doing so probably doom the Republican party in its entirety, since they haven't won a popular vote in over 30 years. — Pfhorrest

The last Republican prior to Trump, GW Bush, won over 50% of the popular vote in 2004.

Yeah if you don’t care about how the political differences affect other people, you’re a selfish jerk. — Saphsin

The point of democratic voting is to choose who best represents your own interests, not another's. It is inherently a selfish system of government (which is one reason both Socrates and Nietzsche considered it the most inferior mode of governance). What kind of retard votes for another person's interests, let alone a stranger's?

But you are right about one thing, I am a selfish jerk!

I'm not arguing for vote abstinence, nor am I arguing that one should somehow have less responsibility in some magical 3rd reality. I'm simply laying out the implications of this one. Responsibility is a good thing - what I am arguing for is it's recognition.

You have responsibility for the consequences of your actions, just like all decisions in life. And all decisions in life are about choosing the better options. There are two available actions, you don't escape it. You really do seem to think there is a magical 3rd alternative reality that avoids responsibility by talking about this additional political debt by voting.

If you feel shameful for voting, you’re putting waaaay too much emotional and symbolic significance into that one act. — Saphsin

Another very good point. But I sympathize with those who do -- Biden is awful, and Bernie was much, much better. If I thought not voting, or voting for Trump or third party, would truly make a difference (and fairly quickly), I would consider it. But there's just no evidence of that whatsoever and, given what I view as the most important issue (climate change) and the limited time left to deal with it, I have to cast my vote for Biden and then, like your saying, continue on pushing him (and the DNC) towards progressive policies. It's actually worked so far -- we've seen in in his climate policies alone. Whether or not they get enacted is beside the point, he has been pushed left. So Sanders' campaign is a huge success in just that respect alone.



Exactly right.

Some states allocate electors based on the national popular vote. So yes, if you want Biden, vote Biden. — frank

What states? I don't know what you're talking about. You mean the state's popular vote?

Enacting that would basically bypass the electoral college, and in doing so probably doom the Republican party in its entirety, since they haven't won a popular vote in over 30 years. — Pfhorrest

Bush won the popular vote in 2004.

Well no, one could not vote, or vote for a third party, and that would be fine too. All of it would be shameful, all of it would be complicit, because it's all designed to. But yes, you don't escape it.

I'm just saying: voting for a monster like Biden in particular implicates you, and you had better work to srcub the filth off yourself in whatever practical way you can after the fact. Perhaps you recognize this. I'm not convinced many do.

We already can speculate on all the fucked up shit Trump will do if reelected, he has a definitive track record. — Merkwurdichliebe

It's not speculation -- there's four years of it. It WILL continue for the next four more years -- there's no reason to believe the opposite.

Abstinence from voting in consequence is like a half vote for the worse option. I care about the consequences, not some imagined essentialist property that exists in this act of voting compared to not voting. There’s two choices, voting or not voting. If there is no alternative 3rd option where there is no responsibility for the existence of the current political state of affairs, there is no additional political debt. Political debt only makes sense if you sacrificed, an additional cost relative to another choice in terms of your actions.

Anyways, this is all highly abstracted from talking about any of the details about activism and government, which I wrote a long post about. Talking about the nuances of responsibility or some other unhelpful use of terminology is very convenient for shielding your eyes from reality.

If there is no alternative 3rd option where there is no responsibility for the existence of the current political state of affairs, there is no additional political debt. — Saphsin

Pfft, and you complain about abstract. My point's not complicated: Biden's a fucking monster, and if you vote for him, you'd have to do everything you can to undo it after. No more no less.

*shrug* If you want to act like voting takes you off the hook then so be it. Enjoy the continued decline of the world which you would be responsible for while pretending you're not. — StreetlightX

Of course we're all responsible. Given the system we're currently in, in the real world, we make our decisions. Voting is a minor one, but there's no question that we should do it. But the real work is done every day, and it will continue.

I'd love to change the two-party system -- I'd also love to not have to participate in the capitalist system -- but I live in the real world. If I'm complicit and share responsibility for participating in it, so be it -- the degree is so minor that to dwell on this or emphasize it is pretty absurd.

Yes I am responsible for a less worse administration, and then my responsibility for the rest of the 4 years is fighting against the current administration. There are two available choices. I don’t know where this alternative 3rd reality where I have less political responsibility for the current state of affairs exists, vote abstinence has consequences and that’s what I also have responsibility for if I choose to. This additional political debt thing if you “also” vote is some intangible magical substance you cooked up, not empirical analysis. This is terrible political philosophy. — Saphsin

Yes. But you said it: the reason is because people over-emphasize the importance of voting. Yes, it is important -- especially now. Why? Because we'd like to at least survive as a species, and if the minor political act of voting helps mitigate the threat of annihilation, we should do it -- even if we don't agree with the two-party system or fully endorse the "less evil" candidate. That's not what a vote for Biden means.

It's not speculation -- there's four years of it. It WILL continue for the next four more years -- there's no reason to believe the opposite. — Xtrix

Technically, yes it is speculation. Anything that is predicted to happen but has not yet become an actuality is speculation.

So, I'm not insinuating that Trump will suddenly stop being a piece of shit, he is a piece of shit through and through. Everything he touches turns to shit. But, I can also guarantee that Biden is an equal and opposite piece of shit to Trump, and his apparrent shift farther to the left is a mere a ploy to attract votes. Once elected, he will carry on with the status quo, and everything will continue to get more fucked.

Yeah it’s difficult to take apart a badly worded abstraction you came up with, but I tried to entertain what you said instead of ignoring it, so I also had to give an abstract response.

If you’re responsible for pushing for the less worse option between two available options, it doesn’t make sense to say there is additional political debt, to keep it simple.

But again, outside this philosophyforum, who cares about these notions? What’s the outcome?

I'm just saying: voting for a monster like Biden in particular implicates you, and you had better work to srcub the filth off yourself in whatever practical way you can after the fact. Perhaps you recognize this. I'm not convinced many do. — StreetlightX

Hopefully many don't. To shame people for making the right choice, as if they fully endorse Biden, is so childish as to be embarrassing. I expect nothing less from you, though.

Technically, yes it is speculation. Anything that is predicted to happen but has not yet become an actuality is speculation. — Merkwurdichliebe

I guess it's speculation that the sun will rise tomorrow, then. Fine.

True, we can believe Trump is perhaps visited by 3 ghosts this Christmas and changes his entire personality and attitude towards the world. But let's try to be serious about it.

But, I can also guarantee that Biden is an equal and opposite piece of shit to Trump, and his apparrent shift farther to the left is a mere a ploy to attract votes. Once elected, he will carry on with the status quo, and everything will continue to get more fucked. — Merkwurdichliebe

Well if you're right, we're completely screwed. So we can give up now, or we can give ourselves some hope, however minor it might be. I don't see an alternative.

Right, I forgot about that, sorry. Brain just went "W lost the popular vote in 2000" -> "W presidency was not won by popular vote", so I scanned backward to HW as the most recent Republican popular victory.

If you’re responsible for pushing for the less worse option between two available options, it doesn’t make sense to say there is additional political debt, to keep it simple — Saphsin

You keep charactering Biden as simply a 'less worse option'. Perhaps he is that. But he is not only that. He is also a terrible human being who is responsible for the immeseration of millions of not hundreds of millions. If the fact that he is 'less bad' is the limit of your political horizon and imagination then so be it. You vote for abstractions and nothing I say will change that.

I guess it's speculation that the sun will rise tomorrow, then. Fine. — Xtrix

Very good, I think you understand. And don't worry, it's not a bad word, everybody does it.

True, we can believe Trump is perhaps visited by 3 ghosts this Christmas and changes his entire personality and attitude towards the world. But let's try to be serious about it. — Xtrix

I'm just saying, Biden will change very little that matters. Fucks sake, Obama was infinitely better than Biden has ever been or ever could be. If he turned out to be a lackey of the status quo, what do you think will happen with Biden?

Well if you're right, we're completely screwed. So we can give up now, or we can give ourselves some hope, however minor it might be. I don't see an alternative. — Xtrix

I prefer to abandon all hope, and talk shit as the free world eats itself alive.

Right, I forgot about that, sorry. Brain just went "W lost the popular vote in 2000" -> "W presidency was not won by popular vote", so I scanned backward to HW as the most recent Republican popular victory. — Pfhorrest

Still, your point is well taken. One popular vote win out of the last 7 is still not a great record. Demographics can't change quickly enough. There's hope the younger generation is pretty engaged already.

I'm just saying, Biden will change very little that matters. Fucks sake, Obama was infinitely better than Biden has ever been or ever could be. If he turned out to be a lackey of the status quo, what do you think will happen with Biden? — Merkwurdichliebe

I had no illusions about Obama either. But when you say that Biden is worse, I don't know what you mean. I'm not interested so much in the personality or history of the individual -- including Trump. I care about the policies that are enacted. And many of Biden's policies, thanks to the Sanders' wing, are the most progressive yet.

Well if you're right, we're completely screwed. So we can give up now, or we can give ourselves some hope, however minor it might be. I don't see an alternative.
— Xtrix

I prefer to abandon all hope, and talk shit as the free world eats itself alive. — Merkwurdichliebe

Well, that's your business.

You’re very smart, surely you can deduct how the least bad option may be voting one day and spending the rest of the 4 years on left wing activities can be better than a different combination of political actions. Those are the available options.

This is the limit of my political horizon? What are you talking about, there aren’t any centrists in this discussion. I supported Bernie, and then the anti-police Black Lives Matter protests this summer. Maybe you didn’t know that, but I made my politics explicit a couple of pages back in what the Left should do. You’re seriously in denial by leaving out convenient points.

I care about the policies that are enacted. And many of Biden's policies, thanks to the Sanders' wing, are the most progressive yet. — Xtrix

Obama had some of the greatest policies ever advertised to the populous. But then he got elected.

That is why I have no faith in an establishment politician who's greatest draw is that he probably won't seem as bad as Trump.

Well, that's your business. — Xtrix

And I own it with pride

You're on a moving train. One track goes off the cliff, the other goes over a rickety, dangerous bridge. These are the only options, because you're on a moving train. What do you choose?

Now, if you're sane, and chose the obvious track -- should you feel shame or guilt at jeopardizing the lives of all the passengers?

Obama had some of the greatest policies ever advertised to the populous. But then he got elected. — Merkwurdichliebe

The global economy was on the verge of collapse on his first day in office. Cut him some slack.

What states? I don't know what you're talking about. You mean the state's popular vote? — Xtrix

I was mistaken about that.