One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness — Konkai

Online communities??! :chin:

meaningful daily conversations — Konkai

Hard to come by (not the whole truth)...hence the internet, other outlets, and platforms.

One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness. — Konkai

I think this is true. At a very general level, I think it is increasing lonliness. Social media have enhance the ability to be falsely social. At least in person one's tone of voice, facial expression, posture all reveal things we might want to hide. In social media we have control and are encouraged to put a false front out. Children who use the internet are less good at reading faces - iow they are worse at empathy. This doesn't mean they no longer mean well, but they lack social mammal skills. Often teenagers are afraid of phones, even, let alone direct contact in person. Their social lives are more mediated (literally) and controlled. The internet is allowed for vastly more contact, but the kind of contact is impoverished and these trends are taking place in professional and private areas with adults. We are being atomed and distanced, while being fooled that we are in contact with others.

One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness — Konkai

The Internet allows us to zero in on exactly what interests us in a manner the real world typically can't match. Like this forum for example, MUCH more convenient and accessible than trying to find a philosophy club which meets once a month across town somewhere.

But then, having found what we're looking for in a very convenient and accessible form, we get sucked in to it. Gradually we spend more time online and less with offline friends, because online we can do exactly what we want to do when we want to do it. The offline friends fade away over time, to be replaced by an endless horde of anonymous strangers.

Ten minutes after I leave this forum for the last time I'll be forgotten forever. None of you will be sending me a card on my birthday. :-) The price we pay for getting what we want can be steep.

Oh, and wait, here's the "good news". It's going to get worse. Way worse. Do you think text is compelling? Wait until the Net can deliver virtual reality. Digital characters customized to your exact specifications, projected in to the 3D space of your living room, or um, perhaps bedroom.

We're headed down the rabbit hole folks. Well, you are, I'll probably be dead before the big time loneliness poop hits the fan.

:ok:

It's true that net and social media interaction alters our way of discuss issues as many things are left out from net conversations that would happen in ordinary interaction.

It's not only facial expressions or postures as mentioned, very important things like age, sex and status of the people we meet aren't apparent in the net. The situation is different if you meet face to face in the physical philosophy club that mentioned 19 year old freshmen students or if the club members are made of 50- to 70-year old professors of philosophy and other academic people. In an anonymous site it is hard to make the difference who is talking. If somebody in PF is shown that his ideas in math are simply wrong, the typical response is that the member (usually a new one) simply insists that he or she is right. I don't know how many would react in the same way in front of a mathematics lecture in the university and continue insisting that the lecturer is totally wrong and they are right.

Unfortunately with social media our behavior is changing as there obviously are many people who don't care how or to whom they are talking or basically talk in a totally differently in the net as they would do in real life.

One anecdote of this comes to mind what happened few years ago in this site. I was referring to book about science and author came on line and joined the discussion. As I had read the book and knew that the author was a science reporter (and one not so well known), I understood that the journalist likely had googled his book and then joined the discussion. Unfortunately there was another very annoying PF member that simply could not fathom the idea that the genuine authors could participate a discussion about their book in this forum, so this guy went on with a nasty flaming tirade accusing the author being a troll and worse. The author saw that it was meaningless to continue discussion. A similar response in real life would mean that the other PF member would have severe mental problems.

I feel that the we are moving into a time where behavior from the net and social media will start have an effect how we will interact also in normal physical life. Hence people will be more impolite, rude and judging and just fixated on themselves. And if people behave this way, it's likely that loneliness becomes more common and we look for contacts of our liking in the net.

In an anonymous site it is hard to make the difference who is talking. — ssu

Yea, true that. And it matters. In real life I would relate to someone 50 years my junior in a more patient manner than I may online when I have no idea of their age. Well, I suppose I could grow up myself and relate to everyone in a more patient manner. Bummer! :-)

The author saw that it was meaningless to continue discussion — ssu

Yes again. This is one of the big drawbacks of the forum/social media publishing model which prioritizes inclusiveness over quality. Those we might most wish to talk to are bored by the discussions and have largely left the medium long ago. Back in the nineties when all of this was new some of the most interesting people engaged, until they realized what the signal to noise ratio was going to be. Many or most users today don't even realize what has been lost.

Hence people will be more impolite, rude and judging and just fixated on themselves. — ssu

That seems to be a pattern which transcends the Net. My Dad (1925-2000) used to talk about this even before the Net took off. People really did used to be more polite in general (assuming we ignore blatant racism, sexism, homophobia etc), but that came in part from a more confining and controlling social environment where people were trained to worry about things like "what will the neighbors think?" Nobody gives much of a #%^ what the neighbors think these days, a form of social liberation, which comes at a price.

If social media moves more from text to video, perhaps that will restore some of the social clues we need to stop acting like animals?

Yes again. This is one of the big drawbacks of the forum/social media publishing model which prioritizes inclusiveness over quality. Those we might most wish to talk to are bored by the discussions and have largely left the medium long ago. Back in the nineties when all of this was new some of the most interesting people engaged, until they realized what the signal to noise ratio was going to be. Many or most users today don't even realize what has been lost. — Hippyhead

Inclusiveness indeed lowers the quality and creates that noise. I do miss many members here that truly upheld some topics in the Forum with an educative approach and gave fruitful responses yet had the persistence to answer those who obviously didn't know much more than the basics.

Gatekeepers are needed. The problem is that then the higher quality discussions retreat to those "Ivory Towers", you get a divide between the public discourse and the professional discourse. If the topic is philosophy, this is just unfortunate as many here would enjoy and learn from top of the line philosophers commenting each other. But when it is the political sphere, for a democracy it is most unfortunate. When the public discourse doesn't at all reflect the actual reality, this creates huge problems.

That seems to be a pattern which transcends the Net. My Dad (1925-2000) used to talk about this even before the Net took off. People really did used to be more polite in general (assuming we ignore blatant racism, sexism, homophobia etc), but that came in part from a more confining and controlling social environment where people were trained to worry about things like "what will the neighbors think?" Nobody gives much of a #%^ what the neighbors think these days, a form of social liberation, which comes at a price. — Hippyhead

I think this is a perfect example how the society is breaking up or changing. Earlier society gave us far more rules to adhere to and we kept far more in touch with our neighbors and family. People did visit extensively their family members and friends, while now something like Facebook makes everything so easy. The real issue is that we substitute actual socializing with net & social media use, and those are not the same thing.

If social media moves more from text to video, perhaps that will restore some of the social clues we need to stop acting like animals? — Hippyhead

I don't think this would help much. It could perhaps make things even worse. During this pandemic teleconferencing, using Zoom or Microsoft Teams etc. has become very typical. Yet if you have met a person only through the net in these situations even with the camera on, that person is still quite remote to those that you have actually met.

Let's take this site as an example: if we wouldn't be anonymous and wouldn't use avatars, but our actual names and photos of ourselves and share even our addresses, not everybody would change their behavior. And that is all that is needed. You can already see it with social media. If you are an American, then likely there is the Atlantic ocean between us, which is an obvious physical barrier. Yet if every PF would suddenly move to the same city, it is very likely that someone would have the idea of having a physical meeting, go for a beer or so. That would change the social behavior radically. Now it's extremely easy just stop coming to the site and as someone already said, nobody would care if a member drops out. No forum member will come ring your doorbell and say: "Hey Hippyhead, we haven't seen you for a while in the philosophy forum, everything all right?"

One thing I discovered recently was that everything we disclose on this site shows up on Google. I have disclosed quite a bit about myself and just happened to look myself on Google yesterday. I was a bit startled to see that everything I had written on this site, even my own photo, was showing up for anyone to read without anyone signing into the forum website. I don't blame the administrators of this site. It merely shows that Google, in England at least, is watching us at all times.

I do not see myself as an enemy of the state but I do feel fearful because I need to apply for jobs and don't want future employees to have instant access to my own private world.

The real issue is that we substitute actual socializing with net & social media use, and those are not the same thing. — ssu

Indeed they aren't. The challenge seems to be that the digital environment often does a better job of delivering what we actually want, control over our experience.

Another example. Why are dogs so incredibly popular? Because they are great friends, whom we can control. When they become inconvenient we don't have to listen to their boring stories, we can just put them in the backyard. We can leave them in the backyard all day while we're at work so that they're bored out of their minds and desperate for companionship. And so when we arrive home we are greeted by a very enthusiastic friend. We can do what we want. We can get what we want. We are in control.

It's hard for real life human beings to compete with that, because engaging with real life humans involves all kinds of compromises.

I do not see myself as an enemy of the state but I do feel fearful because I need to apply for jobs and don't want future employees to have instant access to my own private world. — Jack Cummins

Yea, that's understandable. Well, if your concern reaches the breaking point you could ask the mods to delete your account, and then rejoin with an anonymous screen name. I haven't seen you write anything you should be embarrassed by, but yea, if applying for jobs is in your future, better safe than sorry. It's hard to tell what might offend someone.

I don't want to have to go that far. I did disclose a bit too much personally in my first responses but try to remain a bit cautious. The point I am making is that even on this site nothing is free speech entirely.

Not sure about this, but the mods might be willing to change your screen name without deleting your account. And you could also remove your photo if desired.

It could be worse. You could be branding your reputation with a ridiculous name like Hippyhead, easily confused with Dippyhead. :-)

In real life I would relate to someone 50 years my junior in a more patient manner than I may online when I have no idea of their age. Well, I suppose I could grow up myself and relate to everyone in a more patient manner. — Hippyhead

That is, I think, a positive aspect of the pseudonymity of the internet. There are ways that everyone deserves to be treated, and ways we bias our treatment toward people of different demographics. If you can't tell what demographic someone is in, you can't act on your biases, so you're left with just treating everyone the way that everyone deserves to be treated.

I do believe that the internet is a means of overcoming certain biases. However in some ways the issues of intersex, transgender and non binary identities can become diminished in a world in which the physical is no longer important as we only exist as digital identities.

I was a bit startled to see that everything I had written on this site, even my own photo, was showing up for anyone to read without anyone signing into the forum website. I don't blame the administrators of this site. It merely shows that Google, in England at least, is watching us at all times. — Jack Cummins

Like all public websites, this one can be accessed by web crawlers like Googlebot, and it gets crawled a lot because it ranks highly and changes frequently (this is why the Google search engine is so useful.) Only posting comments is confined to authenticated users, not reading them.

If you're concerned, we could change your username now and within a few days or weeks, any connection between your real name and this website will disappear, because the relevant pages in Google's index will be crawled again, and the old name effectively overwritten. Probably.

Sorry for going off topic people.

@ssu

I agree with what you've said above, social media is slightly altering the way we socialize. We are becoming more self absorbed, it is hard to be kind nowadays. It takes courage. It might reach a point where we have to whip some people in order to get kindness from them.

Unfortunately with social media our behavior is changing as there obviously are many people who don't care how or to whom they are talking or basically talk in a totally differently in the net as they would do in real life.

The way we converse on the web is totally different from the way we do in person. What I can't tell for sure is that, whether this rude talk on the web is going to consequently reflect in our offline interactions.

I don't want to do anything at the present time. If anything, I was surprised that I was becoming famous after long periods in which I did not seem to exist at all.

But, at least, I am aware that I now exist on Google. I don't really wish to be a completely invisible and if someone is interested enough to Google me perhaps they should be entitled to my identity on a philosophlcal identity , because it is part of who I am as a person.

It is interesting more than anything else, but I thought it worth pointing out because others using the site might not be aware of this aspect of taking part in the forums.

:up:

The way we converse on the web is totally different from the way we do in person. What I can't tell for sure is that, whether this rude talk on the web is going to consequently reflect in our offline interactions. — Konkai

I fear that the online behavior will have an effect on our "offline" interactions. And the reasoning behind that might be that "having manners" and "being polite" is seen to be hypocritical and just a facade while the "online" way of talking is more "honest". Some people can have this attitude towards others, but I don't agree with them. Having good manners is a serious issue in any society and this isn't realized in the "online" community, where flaming, trolling or being redflagged isn't a big issue.

For serious defamation one can be put for two years into jail here even if the criminal punishments are lax in this country (as involuntary manslaughter has the similar jail term of two years).

Another example. Why are dogs so incredibly popular? Because they are great friends, whom we can control. When they become inconvenient we don't have to listen to their boring stories, we can just put them in the backyard. We can leave them in the backyard all day while we're at work so that they're bored out of their minds and desperate for companionship. And so when we arrive home we are greeted by a very enthusiastic friend. We can do what we want. We can get what we want. We are in control.

It's hard for real life human beings to compete with that, because engaging with real life humans involves all kinds of compromises. — Hippyhead

Commitment to a relationship is seen as a burden and our consumer society upholds individualism alongside materialism. There are long term changes behind these developments, starting for example on the number of people being single.



And this isn't just because people can opt to live together without being married. This is a global trend we are seeing:


Nor is it just an issue of there being more elder people. The picture below from a Japanese study "A Community of Connections: Looking Forward to the Solo Society" shows well what is happening even if the cultural background of Japan is quite different:

If you're concerned, we could change your username now and within a few days or weeks, any connection between your real name and this website will disappear, because the relevant pages in Google's index will be crawled again, and the old name effectively overwritten. Probably. — jamalrob

My understanding as well.

It might reach a point where we have to whip some people in order to get kindness from them. — Konkai

He he.... :-) Made me smile. I'm probably an Internet psychopath.

And the reasoning behind that might be that "having manners" and "being polite" is seen to be hypocritical and just a facade while the "online" way of talking is more "honest" — ssu

I think there is some truth that talking in an anonymous environment where there are few consequences, and none of any consequence, can be more honest, and thus more instructive.

I've been a forum addict since about the first day they appeared on the Net, and during that experience have discovered my um, inner asshole, that I wasn't previously so clear existed.

There's a scene near the beginning of the movie Devil's Advocate (great film!) where the defense attorney mercilessly rips a young girl to shreds on the stand to free his client. I can be that guy sometimes online, and unlike the attorney in the film, it's not my job to do so.

I just do it for fun.

Kinda scary that.

One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness. I think this is why most people want to be writers, we want to write in order to be heard. We want to find an audience, someone to listen to us, someone to relate to us.

If we were having more meaningful daily conversations, I doubt we would be publishing so much literary work. — Konkai

My logic is the opposite of yours. I love being a life long student reading books or watching videos of college lectures, and then sharing what I learn on the internet and learning from others in the forums. I have had some wonderful enlightening moments thanks to these forums, and I live these moments.

In my mundane life, I do not find the average person capable of the meaningful discussions I want. I can deal with their trivial self centered chatter for only a few minutes. I did join a discussion group at a community center and I was horrified by the ignorance! That ignorance can also show up on-line but it has been my expereince my chances of finding well informed people are much higher in forums.

Back on the streets I feel like a nurse maid, smiling and listening to people chatter, so everyone has warm fuzzy feelings, but I give very little time to that compared to my time in forums. I know I am a snob and that is bad, but really I do not find the average person well informed or with any desire to be well informed. Unless you think watching Jeapordy is getting well informed. :rofl:

Hippyhead
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One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness — Konkai


The Internet allows us to zero in on exactly what interests us in a manner the real world typically can't match. Like this forum for example, MUCH more convenient and accessible than trying to find a philosophy club which meets once a month across town somewhere.

But then, having found what we're looking for in a very convenient and accessible form, we get sucked in to it. Gradually we spend more time online and less with offline friends, because online we can do exactly what we want to do when we want to do it. The offline friends fade away over time, to be replaced by an endless horde of anonymous strangers.

Ten minutes after I leave this forum for the last time I'll be forgotten forever. None of you will be sending me a card on my birthday. :-) The price we pay for getting what we want can be steep.

Oh, and wait, here's the "good news". It's going to get worse. Way worse. Do you think text is compelling? Wait until the Net can deliver virtual reality. Digital characters customized to your exact specifications, projected in to the 3D space of your living room, or um, perhaps bedroom.

We're headed down the rabbit hole folks. Well, you are, I'll probably be dead before the big time loneliness poop hits the fan. — Hippyhead

I agree with all the good things you say about this form of communication and I disagree with a little. For example I have become very close with a woman in another forum because through private messaging I went through the death of her husband with her. This was not intentional but soon after we began communicating she learned her husband had cancer in a a short time he died. Effectively I held her hand through this very rough time in her life and our relationship has continued and evolved into some deep and personal sharing.

It was a man in Portugual who made my last birthday wonderful! He loves sharing his culture and he has a high emotional IQ sending me flowers and music when my spirits are low. True this is a limited relationship but that doesn't mean it is not wonderful at times. I am glad this relationship does not come with the unpleasant aspects of living with someone. I really enjoyed my birthday drinking wine because that is his custom, and eating a Portugese inspired dinner and watching the spiritually moving video he sent me.

I am so happy with the internet and think the pioneer women would have been a whole lot happier if they had the internet. I could live isolated in the boonies or in town and isolated because of the virus and be thrilled to get up each day and turn on my computer and reach out to all the people who come to the web. And some of you will have a very meaningful impact on my life. Thank you :hearts:

Good points! Yea, here we are, so we must be perceiving benefit. It's true that many miracles have happened online. One happened for me, so I know it's true.

One thing that the internet has brought amongst us is loneliness. I think this is why most people want to be writers, we want to write in order to be heard. We want to find an audience, someone to listen to us, someone to relate to us. — Konkai

I find this to be a bit odd.

If I want to be lonely all I need to do is attend an event that my sister hosts or attends. These are usually events with a large number of people with whom I have absolutely no affinity whatsoever.

On the other hand I can look for groups or entertainment options on the internet. I can find things that are by and large 'a niche' and pursue these interests much further than I can in my everyday experiences.

Personal examples are...

- I follow Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese baseball. In fact, I ended up being on Twitter... not to Tweet, but to stream baseball games from Taiwan for free. In Facebook I'm in a few groups that chat about the ups and downs of this game and specifically to the games in Japan, Korea and Taiwan. I'm actually in contact with a couple of professional players via the internet.

I live in a land (Austria) were very few are aware of baseball and if they follow any of it this will be limited to US MLB. Here the sports of focus are Fussball, Formula 1, Skiing and Tennis. Where skiing is occasionally interesting, the other 3 are a complete and utter bore for me. When group coversation center around these topics I feel totally isolated and indeed lonely.

- My music interests are not mainstream. I find many options for these interests and the ability to expand these interests.

The general music taste here just isn't my thing. As I'm over 50 and the folks I know tend to be age appropriate, they seem to be locked into a very specific genre from the past. Quite a bit of the genre is a mainstream that didn't appeal back in the day and it does so even less now.

- I 'enjoy' reading philosophical(ish) dialog, but don't really care for books (being dyslexic). I can easily find communities that are intriguing and even from time to time I'll venture a reply. In addition to this, I've had contact with leading figures in philosophy and science... regarding their work as well as fun topics. I just recently discussed kittens with a leading Astrophysicist. That was hysterical. ;)

Most conversations I have in real life simply have little or no depth and are rarely of my interest. (I find few things in life more boring that having to talk endlessly about how people earn a wage.) It's not that the topics or the people involved are shallow, but rather most folks become long bored with a topic at the point for me where it begins to have signs of developing into an interesting topic.

Additionally if I do speak in public about what's up with me or my interests I can see the boredom on the faces of others, who simply asked me something to be 'polite', but in truth have no interest in my topics or really my well being.

- Another major problem of engaging with folks is that many Austrians smoke (a lot!) and in social setting beer is king. I hate smoke. It makes me feel ill for days after the breathing it. When in such a setting it is unavoidable and even in 'non-smoking areas' (where you still smell the smoke) these folks have to excuse themselves every 30 minutes or so and disappear outside to smoke for 10 to 15 minutes. Subsequently they end up forming into a private clique making interaction very difficult. If you don't drink beer with them... well... they treat you like air. One might as well be invisible (or simply not present at all), so no matter if humans are in the room with you, if you don't drink this rusty piss water you do not exist.

When engaging with people over the internet I have never once had to breath in or drink something I don't care to in the course of a dialog.

This list of examples could go on and on, but in my limited experience the internet has been wonderful. I have been afforded the opportunity to connect with people, even if I never see them in my lifetime, in quality relationships that have a depth of meaning far greater than most in person contacts have ever proven to become. I have had the opportunity to meet some of these people when visiting my area and I have to say the meetings have always exceeded my expectations.

The point is, I find with the internet an unlimited supply of intriguing topics and people which whom I can engage in a very meaningful manner. In my everyday life, the number of topics and people are quite limited. If my interests simply don't sync up with those limitation it matters little how many folks surround me in a close proximity I find myself very alone.

It's in the way that you use it... the internet can expand options and present new and engaging things to that one is really never lonely or it can simply highlight that one is lonely, but the cause is not the internet. The cause is yourself.

Now I suppose if one looks at the lives presented on social media and makes the assumption that the lives and times of those posted are indeed the 24/7 lifestyle of these folks, well... that sort of comparison could make anyone feel insignificant and alone. People tend to post the highlights, but life isn't for the most part made of highlights. Perhaps the entire Facebooks, Instgrams, Snap Chats and What'sApps should come with this disclaimer...

These are simply the highlights and not the norm, as:

“Kings and philosophers shit—and so do ladies.”

― Michel de Montaigne

Perhaps the king of rants might shed a bit of light upon what I'm trying to write about in an very roundabout manner:

Most conversations I have in real life simply have little or no depth and are rarely of my interest. It's not that the topics or the people involved are shallow, but rather most folks become long bored with a topic at the point for me where it begins to have signs of developing into an interesting topic. — Mayor of Simpleton

Sounds very familiar. Most people enjoy rather wandering random conversations about the mechanics of every day life, and the doings of other people of course. If you attempt to steer such conversations towards anything philosophical you have about one minute to do your thing before more or less being accused of dominating the conversation. Typically, at the first sight of philosophy folks will roll their eyes and smile, and perhaps even cheerfully say, "there he goes again" until the one minute time limit has expired, and then you'd best get back to the wandering random chit chat about the mechanics of everyday life.

My wife, whom I love dearly and could not live without, and I regularly have some bizarre conversations. Just as my mind is incurably fixated on big picture issues, her's is just as incurably focused on the daily life topics. Over 40 years we've learned how to bounce back and forth between the two modes at the speed of yack, and somehow mold the large and small together in to what, to us at least, seems like a coherent conversation.

The nature of nothing blends seamlessly in to the doing of the laundry, back to the philosophical foundations of religion before returning to it's time to dump the pasta. Round and round and round we go between the large and small, like a vibrating atom or the pulsing big bang / big crunch of the universe. Alpha and omega, tomato and tomawto, zero and one.

I totally understand.

My wife looks at what I'm doing here in PF and her reactions are usually as follows.

"Why are you bothering replying to this obvious idiot? It's only gonna irritate you more."
"I know you think that sounds great, but I sort think... well... 'duh' isn't it just bleeding obvious?"
"Seriously... you had to explain that?"
"Are you finally done answering questions no one cared to ask?"

Then again she's happy I do this insanity mostly outside of her circle of friends.

I think my big issue in dealing with conversations in the real world are the constant appeals to emotions. This really gets to be so damned annoying... ironically to the point I'll get emotional about them making such an appeal. That never goes well. ;)

Anyway... in this little world of rants and ravings online, if someone is making a post that's the philosophical equivalent to a 'dutch oven' I have the choice to simply avoid the post, as well as the poster of the brain fart in a jar. In the real world you kind of have to nod your head and keep up a pretense. I suck at that skill.

This basically explains all of my interactions in social networks...



Tending my fruit, tending my fruit
Ah, you've got to have a hobby
A man must have a shed to keep him sane

Spraying my buds, spraying my buds
Got to keep away diseases
I mix the poisons and the wife don't complain

Some people say that I am out of my tree
Or just a strawberry fool
Someday they'll see, 'til then I'll blow you a raspberry
'Cause apples and pears are me

So I'm tending my fruit and I don't give a hoot
'Cause it keeps me sane, it keeps me sane

Some people say that I am out of my tree
Or just a strawberry fool
Someday they'll see, 'til then I'll blow you a raspberry
'Cos apples and pears are me

So I'm tending my fruit, tending my fruit
Ah, you've got to have a hobby
A man must have a shed to keep him sane
To keep him sane, to keep him sane, to keep him sane
Oh, the wife can't complain

To keep him sane, to keep him sane
Yeah, keeps him sane, yeah, to keep him sane
To keep him sane, yeah, it keeps him sane
To keep him sane