The Reason for which I was forced to exist temporarily in this world

KerimF

Hello,
Let us first analyse some words in this question:

{1} I said ‘I’ not ‘we’ because if I couldn’t find the answer concerning my own being first, how could I know it concerning the being of anyone else?

{2} The word ‘forced’ is likely not pleasant to many of you. But, in my philosophy, I don’t fool myself to please someone else :) As I recall well, no one asked me if I liked to exist or not. In other words, I had no free-will, at all, concerning my birth in this world.

{3} But, on the other hand, the word ‘forced’ doesn’t imply that I have no free-will to end my existence in this world anytime it seems necessary to me.

{4} Also, the word ‘forced’ doesn’t imply that I couldn’t be grateful for being allowed to exist the way I am.

{5} The word ‘temporarily’ denotes that I am aware in advance that my journey will not last forever in this world. In fact, even our huge universe will not last forever as well; but this is another topic.

After this brief introductory :) , it is time for me to recall the steps on which my answer have progressed:

{A} Being forced to exist implies there is ‘A Will’ behind my existence.

{B} Since I can’t ask this ‘Will’ directly about the reason for which ‘IT’ allowed me to exist, I can still use my brain; the tool which ‘IT’ gave me to perceive ‘IT’.

{C} My first thought was to assume that ‘IT’ expects something from me for ‘ITSELF’. In this case, I have to find out what it could be (this may be equivalent to knowing God’s Will for some of you).

{D} It is natural for me to build a robot or a robotic system to serve me in a certain way. If the case in {C} true, shouldn’t I imagine this ‘Will’ as of an imperfect being(s) as I am? Although nothing can stop me seeing myself a robot made by a needy external maker, I thought it may be better for me to keep thinking :).

{E} My second thought was to assume that ‘IT’, being perfect (relative to me), doesn’t need anything from me. Although this idea sounds great perhaps, it doesn’t answer my question. In other words, I have to find out a certain reason for which ‘IT’ bothered ‘ITSELF’ to brought me into this temporarily life.

{F} Unfortunately, the reason, I am looking for, could be, as in math, simply a null set. In other words, even if there is a reason, it could be that a tiny creature in this huge universe, as I, is not supposed to perceive it or even know it exists in the first place.

{G} The answer in {F} reminds me how zillion of non-human living things (cells, plants, animals... etc.) are supposed not only be ignorant of the end purpose for which they are created, they are also supposed not to perceive, in any way, their maker. This leads me to ask myself: ”Am I really just another living thing with the exception that, to some extent, I perceive that a certain ‘Will’ is behind my existence?"

{H} I personally didn’t like the answer in {G}. And this leaves me with the last available answer.

{I} This ‘Will’ is perfect and allowed me to exist in this world just to offer me something special/personal. And, therefore, it is up to me to deserve getting it or not. In any case, my mortal body will simply return back, sooner or later, to its state of void (the state before its birth).

{J} Sorry, because no matter what you think or believe, I liked the answer in {I}. And the following step is to find out what could be this personal gift which is offered for free and I have the free-will to accept it or not (actually to try to deserve it or not).

{K} Truth be said, I can’t be interested seriously in getting from 'IT' a special/personal gift which belongs to the temporary world since my mortal body will lose it anyway, sooner or later.

{L} A very special gift usually reflects the nature/position of the donor. So what could be the gift in {I}? In brief, ‘IT’ offers me knowing, if I want to, how to replace my temporary existence in this world with an eternal one in ‘ITs’ Realm which is not defined/limited by the notions of time and space (it is much like the dream realm in which I existed many times... also without my will :) ).

{M} It is clear that {L} took me to answer the following question. What could be the process which I need to follow if I like joining my Maker’s Realm? But since it is just an offered gift and if I couldn’t succeed taking advantage of it for some reasons, I will simply return back to my state of void (it is equivalent to what we may call ‘Everlasting Fire’... as we throw into fire whatever we see of no use at all, in order to return it back to its raw state).

{N} Do you think it is good/wise that I also give you my answer of the question in {M}? I bet that many of you, if not all :) , prefer not to hear it. And I respect your wish.

Best Regards,
Kerim

Jack Cummins

↪KerimF

I think that you answered your own question in clause I in saying that the will allowed you something personal and special and it is up to you to get it or not.

This is based on the view that we each have a set of circumstances, including our strengths and weaknesses and we can choose to make our own destiny in the world. Of course there will be obstacles and some suffering but we learn in the process.

Also, just to say that life is temporary is not sufficient to say it is pointless. In fact, for the people who are suffering life can seem very long indeed. This can lead to suicidal ideas, but this can frequently be based on clinical depression and in some cases antidepressants can make a big difference.

Whatever, whether life is enjoyable or deep misery is all a matter of perspective. It may also be about intent because I have found that the more negative I become everything becomes worse and worse. And then, it takes a jolt from within, or outside oneself through some uplifting experiences, to break the negative cycle.

Ultimately, while we are in this life we create our own reality for better or worse, with the aid of the means available for us.

Ciceronianus

As I recall well, no one asked me if I liked to exist or not. In other words, I had no free-will, at all, concerning my birth in this world. — KerimF

Well, there was no "you" to ask, before you existed, nor was there any "you" to be "forced" to exist before you existed. So, there was no IT forcing anything.

180 Proof

↪Ciceronianus the White

:smirk:

KerimF

Well, there was no "you" to ask, before you existed, nor was there any "you" to be "forced" to exist before you existed. So, there was no IT forcing anything. — Ciceronianus the White

Sorry, did I say that every living being is supposed to perceive 'IT'?

Just the contrary, zillion of beings are supposed just to follow their instincts and serve life in the world by building it and/or destroying it. They are not supposed even to think of 'IT', in any way, during their temporary journey in this world.

And these beings, among humans too, are very important in life, including my personal life. For example, the instincts of survival guide such humans to know how to exchange cleverly their hard works with various pleasures preprogramed in their body (this reminds me the saying I used hearing: "Every man has his price"). Their hard works allowed others to have good food and dresses besides many other important things to make their life more enjoyable (or miserable in bloody conflicts and wars, for example).

The good news is that one's happiness in life doesn't require the perception of 'IT'.
And without this perception or without having any idea for which end purpose one lives, life would look like a big game in which all sort of players talk about how to win and lose till one by one quits it while new players are joining it.

KerimF

Ultimately, while we are in this life we create our own reality for better or worse, with the aid of the means available for us. — Jack Cummins

On my side, I don't say I create my own reality. I say instead I discover my own reality (of my being and the world I live in).
While I walk under the Light of Knowledge I have no reason to be confused or have fear in any situation.

Philosophim

Your parents forced you into the world. All your questions should be directed towards them. If you're going to be talking about God, it doesn't really lead off when you're talking about your personal birth of being born into the world.

Punshhh

↪KerimF

We are entirely in the dark on the issue.

KerimF

We are entirely in the dark on the issue. — Punshhh

I am sorry that you see yourself in the dark about this. I wasn't born in the light of knowledge either.

In fact, by design, the common weakness with which all intelligent human babies are born is being totally ignorant.
This universal weakness had to be known/called in the far past as the 'Original Sin' by Jews. Yes, many millenniums ago, when medicine was primitive, every serious weakness/damage in one's body was attributed to sin; disobedience of a certain god (Moses’ God, in Judaism).

Being in the 'Light of the Relative Perfect Knowledge' (relative to one's reality) could be seen, therefore, as being saved from this common weakness (the Original Sin). For example, if Jesus came to save me, he has to help me get the logical answers to all my important questions I am looking for; that is to help me go out from the dark of ignorance into the light of knowledge. Did he succeed or not to be the all-knowledge teacher of my reality? I may explore the answer later, on a separate thread, if some active members here like to share :)

Punshhh

↪KerimF

I'll elaborate, the answer to the question ought to be contingent on the answer to these two questions;

How did we come to be here?
And
For what purpose?

In the absence of this information, it is difficult to answer your question.

KerimF

Your parents forced you into the world. All your questions should be directed towards them. If you're going to be talking about God, it doesn't really lead off when you're talking about your personal birth of being born into the world. — Philosophim

I am sorry that you are not aware that my parents were just a tool, not the Will which is behind my existence (and their existence as well). Parents have no idea about the nature of which their baby will be made before their decision to get one. At best, they may choose its gender perhaps. I also heard that it may be possible to make a human newcomer as a living robot (much like the human babies who had to be born because of Law, not Love).

Sorry again, because if someone hears you mentioning the word 'God', he would have the impression that you also know what it means. On my side, I am not sure what do YOU mean by (or how YOU define) this word.
For example, should the God, you mentioned here, apply certain justice on his tiny creatures, called humans; as humans do among themselves on earth?
I asked you this because such a supernatural judge or ruling king doesn't exist in my reality.

TheMadFool

↪KerimF

There was nothing before one's existence that could be forced to do anything, let alone to exist. Am I off topic?

KerimF

How did we come to be here? — Punshhh

It happens that I am a rational scientist. So when I heard the definition of straight lines, I didn't ask myself where they start and end. I simply adopted a suitable notion for this case (besides many other cases) which is 'infinity'. Although we can't reach 'infinity', this doesn't prevent an engineer to use it while drawing useful perspective images (parallel straights intersect at infinity).

What I try saying is that it is enough for me to know how I came here without losing my time in discovering the start and the end of the world existence and life.

For example, I know that, right before my birth, there were two tiny independent living cells. When they had to chance to meet each other, they followed a preprogramed algorithm/process and became just one living cell 'me' (who says two independent living beings cannot become one being only :) ) Then, more programs entered the play and this starting living cell was able to evolve gradually (as the very ancient primitive living cells did; though in zillion years) but in a rather very fast way (taking advantage of all data that were inherited from one generation to another throughout history; a very very long one). This quick evolution has needed about 9 months in my case :)

For what purpose? — Punshhh

I thought I already gave the different thoughts about it on my first post!

KerimF

There was nothing before one's existence that could be forced to do anything, let alone to exist. Am I off topic? — TheMadFool

You are on topic indeed. You present another path that leads to {G} and {F} above.

TheMadFool

You are on topic indeed. You present another path that leads to {G} and {F} above. — KerimF

Good to hear! :up:

Ciceronianus

Sorry, did I say that every living being is supposed to perceive 'IT'? — KerimF

No. What you did say, however, was that you weren't asked if you wanted to exist, and were "forced" to do so, by IT. That was what I referred to, as should be obvious.

KerimF

No. What you did say, however, was that you weren't asked if you wanted to exist, and were "forced" to do so, by IT. That was what I referred to, as should be obvious. — Ciceronianus the White

After all, you know about your existence more than I do.
In my reality, I am even forced :) to also exist many times in a dream realm (not limited by the notions of time and space).
But, perhaps in your reality, I mean how YOU perceive reality, you have your good reasons to believe that you had also the free-will to accept or not to be brought into this life. And when you are in 'deep sleep', you are able to also start or not a dream; if not choosing the events in which you like living, in every dream.
On my side, my philosophy is about analysing and describing facts (besides other things) as I personally live and perceive them.

So It is always okay that someone doesn't agree with me on something, if not everything, which I may say (philosophical or scientific).

Well, there was no "you" to ask, before you existed, nor was there any "you" to be "forced" to exist before you existed. So, there was no IT forcing anything. — Ciceronianus the White

I wished you went on and told me your version about this that gave you a better understanding of your own existence in the least.

Gregory

When you take your first breath you accept life with all its consequences. Einstein said the foremost question in philosophy is whether the world is good or not. The quote I found in the book The Secret. The book is about what religious people swear by: faith can move mountains

Gus Lamarch

Existence is the craving for the craving for existence. This primordial "will" - if it can be named that way - did not necessarily need a transcendental entity to desire existence. For existence to emerge, simple non-existence is enough.

KerimF

When you take your first breath you accept life with all its consequences. — Gregory

You are right.This is equivalent to 'being forced to accept life at it is, at birth'. :)

Einstein said the foremost question in philosophy is whether the world is good or not. The quote I found in the book The Secret. — Gregory

The facts in the world are just facts. A fact could be seen good or not relative to the observer, ‘Relativity’ :) In other words, an absolute list of what is good and what is bad doesn't exist. But such a list, if it is relative to an observer, does exist.

The book is about what religious people swear by: faith can move mountains. — Gregory

I think this is equivalent to 'even the impossible may happen'. I think even an atheist may live such experience by insisting to do what was supposed to be impossible.
On the other hand, some facts which happened to me in my life are supposed to be of the impossibilities. For example, one day, I had a call that someone accused me of a serious crime whose penalty is death and some armed policemen were running after me. Soon after the call, I tried to know in which police station the accusation was done. When I knew it, I got a taxi to it. At my arrival, I was surprised that the accusation was totally dropped. There, the chief policemen told me that someone (I didn't know) came to the station and provided what proved my innocence then went away. So I simply returned back home as if nothing happened.

KerimF

Existence is the craving for the craving for existence. This primordial "will" - if it can be named that way - did not necessarily need a transcendental entity to desire existence. For existence to emerge, simple non-existence is enough. — Gus Lamarch

Perhaps I will understand the practical meaning of your version about 'existence and non-existence' if I will be born again :D

Punshhh

↪KerimF

What I try saying is that it is enough for me to know how I came here without losing my time in discovering the start and the end of the world existence and life.

But the explanation you give, via science, is not how you came to be here, it is merely the mechanism by which you body came to be constituted. We really don't know how we came to be here. Or, we really don't know how the universe we perceive, came to be here.

For what purpose?
— Punshhh

I thought I already gave the different thoughts about it on my first post!

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't know any purposes for which we came to be here. One of your thoughts might be correct, or the real purpose might be something else entirely, we just don't know.

You do seem to be looking for some kind of spiritual purpose, or is it more that that makes more sense for you?

khaled

↪KerimF

I don't want to sound antagonistic here, but almost none of that made sense to me.

Being forced to exist implies there is ‘A Will’ behind my existence. — KerimF

Is there "A Will" for everything happening? Are physical forces "Wills"?

My first thought was to assume that ‘IT’ expects something from me for ‘ITSELF’. — KerimF

This assumes some form of intelligence which isn't justified

My second thought was to assume that ‘IT’, being perfect — KerimF

Would be another unjustified assumption

I personally didn’t like the answer in {G}. — KerimF

Which doesn't make it false (just clarifying)

This ‘Will’ is perfect and allowed me to exist in this world just to offer me something special/personal. — KerimF

Or maybe it just thought that it would be funny

So what could be the gift in {I}? In brief, ‘IT’ offers me knowing, if I want to, how to replace my temporary existence in this world with an eternal one in ‘ITs’ Realm which is not defined/limited by the notions of time and space (it is much like the dream realm in which I existed many times... also without my will :) ). — KerimF

Or maybe there is no gift. Or that the gift is the life itself.

{N} Do you think it is good/wise that I also give you my answer of the question in {M}? I bet that many of you, if not all :) , prefer not to hear it. And I respect your wish. — KerimF

Sure

KerimF

But the explanation you give, via science, is not how you came to be here, it is merely the mechanism by which you body came to be constituted. We really don't know how we came to be here. Or, we really don't know how the universe we perceive, came to be here. — Punshhh

You are right and this is why I summarized the start of my existence, in the least, by saying... I was forced to exist the way I am. What remains to do, to me in the least, is discovering whatever is related to my actual existence and seeing to how far I can take advantage of it (this is science to me).

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't know any purposes for which we came to be here. One of your thoughts might be correct, or the real purpose might be something else entirely, we just don't know. — Punshhh

Just to please your curiosity about this, you may like reading my post:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/460571

It will up to you to consider what you read if it is spiritual, material or else.

KerimF

↪khaled

After reading your comments, it seems to me, so perhaps I am wrong, you have no alternatives about what I said (unless they are supposed to be your secrets :) ).

Punshhh

↪KerimF

It will up to you to consider what you read if it is spiritual, material or else.

Thanks for the link, I am a fellow traveler looking for an answer to these questions.

I would like to add something for you to consider.

Firstly, it is relevant to view humanity as a whole, we are a colony, each independent on the population for our survival and sociolo-cultural development. I will go further and suggest that in a sense, humanity is one organism, indeed the whole of the biosphere is one organism. So you can't consider yourself in isolation, if you are considering reality.

Secondly, the purpose that can be deduced from the world we find ourselves in is simply for humanity to sustain the biosphere in a healthy state in the short term and in the long term, to secure its long term survival in the universe at large. Any other purposes, of our being here can then work themselves out during this plan.

Ciceronianus

But, perhaps in your reality, I mean how YOU perceive reality, you have your good reasons to believe that you had also the free-will to accept or not to be brought into this life. — KerimF

I think I have good reason to believe it makes no sense to speak of us as if we existed before we exist,. Because, I hope it doesn't surprise you to learn, we don't exist until we exist. We exist only when we exist. So there is no me, nor is there a you, pondering or deciding whether or not we should exist until we exist. Nor is there a me or a you that can be forced exist when neither you nor I exist.

PeterJones

A very special gift usually reflects the nature/position of the donor. So what could be the gift in {I}? In brief, ‘IT’ offers me knowing, if I want to, how to replace my temporary existence in this world with an eternal one in ‘ITs’ Realm which is not defined/limited by the notions of time and space (it is much like the dream realm in which I existed many times... also without my will :) )
.

↪KerimF

The mystics would say that transcending life and death is not a gift but your birthright. Or to put it another way, there would be nobody to give you this gift except yourself.

Your current existence would be explained by accumulated karma. Only when consciousness is purified can it be stable and not have to come back as another life for more school-work to be done.. . , . .

KerimF

Firstly, it is relevant to view humanity as a whole, we are a colony, each independent on the population for our survival and sociolo-cultural development. I will go further and suggest that in a sense, humanity is one organism, indeed the whole of the biosphere is one organism. So you can't consider yourself in isolation, if you are considering reality.

Secondly, the purpose that can be deduced from the world we find ourselves in is simply for humanity to sustain the biosphere in a healthy state in the short term and in the long term, to secure its long term survival in the universe at large. Any other purposes, of our being here can then work themselves out during this plan. — Punshhh

In a sense, you are right. Every living being, human or non-human, is important for the continuity of the structure that you referred to as 'organism'.
On the other hand, I am aware, unlike my dog and cat are :) that this organism, on earth in the least, will not last forever, by design (many scientists try their best already to estimate when its end will likely happen, speaking scientifically).

Therefore, if I was brought into life just to play a certain role or roles for this ‘organism’, I can’t see any real serious meaning of being involved in such a lost case. This may explain why I searched, since I was very young, a path that lets me be not of this limited world, and why I didn’t have the need to be guided by my instincts of survival (the prerequisite to be an active member in the ‘organism’).
Obviously, I expect that a few, if not rare, people only may see their personal existence and life as I do.

KerimF

I think I have good reason to believe it makes no sense to speak of us as if we existed before we exist,. Because, I hope it doesn't surprise you to learn, we don't exist until we exist. We exist only when we exist. So there is no me, nor is there a you, pondering or deciding whether or not we should exist until we exist. Nor is there a me or a you that can be forced exist when neither you nor I exist. — Ciceronianus the White

Let me agree with you on what you said... concerning my first birth :)
I mean by 'my first birth' when the world received me as a human baby.
But this is not all...
I can't deny that it is not unusual that I am forced to exist in a realm which is not limited by time/space. This realm is usually known a dream. And I don't realise that I was living in a dream till my body wakes up.
Now, I guess someone can't say I am not forced to exist in a dream because I didn't exist first to know what existence is :D

KerimF

The mystics would say that transcending life and death is not a gift but your birthright. Or to put it another way, there would be nobody to give you this gift except yourself.

Your current existence would be explained by accumulated karma. Only when consciousness is purified can it be stable and not have to come back as another life for more school-work to be done.. . , — FrancisRay

I am afraid that if I wasn't forced to exist in this life first, there would be no gift to be offered and also no meaning/sign of what I call 'myself' now.

The accumulated karma might be a reality for some others.
But, as far as I perceive, I am in my first journey in this world.
Perhaps, if I, as Kerim, will return back to it after the death of my mortal body, I will likely see karma in my reality too.

By the way, I live the unconditional love and care towards all others. Does this mean that my consciousness is purified and there will be no need to exist again; that is I will end up as if I never existed in the first place?

The Reason for which I was forced to exist temporarily in this world

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