My two teenage children were initially resistant to philosophical questioning and discussion. My daughter saw the rabbit hole as an unending abyss of questions with no answers, my son had no interest in disturbing the apparent logical order of his world.

You can’t push people into philosophical discussion. It’s a matter of finding the right questions that grab their interest. My son, a mathematician, is intrigued by a problem that appears logical on the surface, but isn’t. My daughter, a creative thinker, is intrigued by an unsolved mystery of everyday experience. The trick is then not to kick their assumptions out from underneath them too quickly, or they will scramble for the nearest ‘solid ground’ and cling to it for dear life. Point out the doors and windows, to be opened when they’re ready, and keep asking them questions.

I think philosophy is something like 5% important and 95% entertaining/stimulating and if someone doesn't find it entertaining or stimulating then they're unlikely to be interested in it and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Philosophy is probably less important than understanding how to manage your finances or having competency with mathematics but you might not be interested in that either. At least, surely, there are things with clear merit to them that you don't do because you have other interests? Nutrition, fitness, knowledge of computers, something? Most philosophy simply isn't more useful than these things and a lot of it has no practical use at all. Even if you see the 5% important without finding it entertaining, you're not likely to be interested in talking about it. I think you'll have to settle for talking with like-minded people.

Thank you for the response. I love to hear fellow philosophy people's opinions on this matter. I just have always found it so fascinating that people don't enjoy it as much as we do. I am the one who isn't necessarily forcing it on anyone. But I do run into instances where there is a philosophical discussion going on even when the participants other than me realize that it is one indeed. Once I start spewing philosophical responses to a seemingly unphilosophical discussion, even though the discussion, in reality, is in fact a philosophical one, the participants are immediately afraid to continue with the discussion or just don't care anymore. This precise moment, time, and time again is what interests me but also bothers me. But, oh well!

Point out the doors and windows, to be opened when they’re ready, and keep asking them questions. — Possibility

I like this quote. This is usually what I do if a person I am talking to is interested and curious. I think this is definitely the best way of dealing with it.

Philosophy is probably less important than understanding how to manage your finances or having competency with mathematics but you might not be interested in that either. — Judaka

This is very interesting to me. I agree but also have some questions to ask you. Philosophy is probably less important to them than understanding how to manage finances or having competency with mathematics, but I find these same people having many opinions about life and social purpose from their own experiences in these camps as well. For instance, even though it is practical for these people to have a job, know finances, date people, get therapy, act on their hobbies, etc., philosophy still haunts most people. What if someone spends a lot of time learning about finances, working, trying to build a family, but things don't work out?

Philosophy usually is needed or is called upon in their phase of reaction and action after these events. Let's discuss losing one's job, since this usually affects other aspects of their life - finances, mortgage/rent, relationships, income, etc. Most people that lose their job want meaning in it. They want to know how they could've lost their job. They want to know why they lost their job. They want to know why it happened to them. Some start questioning themselves. Some start questioning God. Some chuckles and react with dark jokes and smirks. Some are prepared, so when it happens, they are quite calm and start looking for immediate jobs, incomes, assistance. Usually, in most of these scenarios, there are still phases of anxiety, depression, motivation, dedication, calmness amongst different people. But philosophy plays a role sometimes. Sometimes philosophy can help someone become less angry, anxious, and depressed when bad things happen, or when things don't go their way. Maybe philosophy can actually prepare them for these times? I don't want to ramble on too long about this, but I am sure you get where I've gone with this.

So, back to my original post, it is strange to me that philosophy is so scary to most people. Yes, managing finances, competency in skills for jobs, and relationship attention are practical and important. But would you now say philosophy is too?

What do both of you think about therapy/advice to others about life and philosophy? Do you think therapy, advice, and counseling have a lot to do with philosophy when it comes down to it? Without being haughty and condescending, when someone usually asks me for advice and suggestions on matters of life, I usually give them a philosophical, opinionated piece of advice that has helped me - through knowledge and/or wisdom from my experiences. People don't seem to dislike or not care about philosophy in this form...

What do both of you think about therapy/advice to others about life and philosophy? — The Questioning Bookworm

A few people with degrees in philosophy make their living by offering Philosophical Counseling. But their professional niche is very small compared to Psychological Therapists, Religious Counselors, and Mystical Psychics. If you are in a large city, it might be worth looking into as a paid vocation. :smile:

Philosophical Counseling : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_counseling

It’s not like anyone in my family reads philosophy for fun like I do, but I have engaged in philosophical discourse with my brother and parents. The best way to do it is to steer clear from existential questions and big moral dilemmas like abortion and veganism, and ask their opinions on playful thought experiments. My mother told me she would happily step into the experience machine lol

I’d like to push back somewhat on the idea that philosophy isn’t important, or doesn’t have much value. To me, the value doesn’t lie in something tangible or quantifiable, but in how you experience life. I feel that people interested in philosophy naturally find the world to be more mysterious and interesting than others, and I think doing philosophy feels purposeful, and I say that as essentially a nihilist. But there’s something that feels meaningful about discovering answers (or discovering that there are no answers) to big questions that most people never consider. So I wouldn’t say it isn’t without merit. It probably won’t help you pay the bills or put food on your table, but it may provide meaning. I also think it adds depth to your experience. I don’t know how many TV shows, or books, or games, or movies that I’ve found to be more sublime because I was aware of the implicit philosophical themes throughout them. Themes I wouldn’t have been aware of or able to appreciate without some knowledge of philosophy.

I expect someone who's interested in mathematics to be competent at it but I have no such feelings towards someone interested in philosophy. I'm not saying philosophy has no importance, I'm saying it has some utility but so do many things that neither you nor I am doing but we're doing philosophy, why is that? I think it's because we find philosophy interesting and fun, no? If philosophy is something one does or doesn't do based on whether it's fun or not then isn't it more of a recreational activity than something one does for practical benefits?

Of course, philosophers love to create value (through philosophy) for their efforts but that kind of thing is ubiquitous and seemingly part of human nature. If I'm good at or interested in something, the chances of my positive feelings towards that thing simply skyrocket. Of course people who like philosophy say good things about it but meanwhile when people says something we don't like is important, we're already looking for reasons of why that isn't true.

Honestly, even when I'm talking with other philosophers, I usually feel what they are saying is useless and without any practical value. Yet I'd much rather talk about that useless thing than something I find boring. All I am saying is that I think if you investigated yourself thoroughly then you would find that you are not much different from the people who aren't interested in your philosophy. You have your interests and enjoy talking about them and you have things you aren't interested in and don't like to talk about. You are not merely practising philosophy because you've realised importance and utility that others have failed to see, even if that's the explanation you'd like to give.

I have a slight misgiving with regards to the characterization of most individuals 'disinterested' in such modes of thought as being 'average' (presumably the case, should one infer from the title of this thread). That may be wise in a statistical context, but not a philosophical one.

That being said, 'most' individuals are enslaved by Darwinism, live to satiate their most fleeting impulses, dream no further than the practicality of their life and are inevitably constrained by their own imagination. Truthfully engaging in philosophy (not merely as a pastime) necessitates a sacrifice of some, if not all of those dimensions to one's character.

'Sometimes philosophy can help someone become less angry, anxious, and depressed when bad things happen, or when things don't go their way. Maybe philosophy can actually prepare them for these times?'

I couldn't agree more. In fact, the overwhelming majority of therapeutic treatments are in some form or measure, underpinned by humanistic branches of thought; Existentialism and its psychological applications are a prototypical example.

It seems to me, however, as has been illustrated by others above, that the philosophies that are identified by cognitive operations of the highest abstraction solicit the least degree of interest amongst their participants. Discussing the metaphysics of the mind or the structure of human perception is, superficially, tangential to one's foremost motives and predilections.

How one is to react, believe and mediate themselves out in a chaotic world is the very essence of several philosophies. In terms of moral or transcendental values, they have invariably been of tremendous insights. Despite this, however, they remain accessible only to those who are willing to abandon all presuppositions, apprehensions and instinctual constraints (far easier said than done) they may be subject to.

Philosophy commits no promises, vows or certainties of any kind; it is a journey you elect to embark on without any knowledge of where it shall take you, or what it may bring to you. For many, that's candidly unappealing.

There are conversations about life's problems that some would consider "philosophical". These are ubiquitous. But when one starts using terms like "ascriptivism" or "coherentism" mundane life goes by the wayside and a more academic environment must prevail. It would be the same as me bringing up something like "algebraic varieties" in a social setting. Those present would soon depart.

If you are a serious philosopher you might pursue some arcane topic to exhaustion and write about it, posting your thoughts on the web, and obtaining some small satisfaction in doing so - even if few others show interest. I've done that in a tiny sliver of mathematics, and one of my colleagues expressed it well by saying, Its like being a retired priest and always looking for inspiration in the scriptures, You do it because that's what you do. :cool:

I don't mind if other people are not interested in philosophy but do mind if they criticise me for my interest.

Actually, I think I have always managed to find people to converse with about philosophical questions from when I was about 10 or 11 years old. Most of the various friends I have found who take an interest in the subject do not read books on that nature.

But generally I do feel that a lot of people are quite prejudiced against the pursuit of philosophy as a serious interest. I get comments from various people I know implying that I should be spending my time more productively. A lot of the criticism seems to be against it on the basis that it does not add much to life, especially in material terms.
But I am not going to worry too much about other people's prejudices.

Finally, I would say that while a lot of people cannot be bothered with philosophy it can spark off some interesting conversations with strangers. I have been out reading books, libraries or coffee shops and people have started up talking in response to some book I am reading. In most cases I never ever seen the person again but often remember the conversation forever more.

Finally, I would say that while a lot of people cannot be bothered with philosophy it can spark off some interesting conversations with strangers. I have been out reading books, libraries or coffee shops and people have started up talking in response to some book I am reading. In most cases I never ever seen the person again but often remember the conversation forever more. — Jack Cummins

This happens to me sometimes too. I love it when it does because it has the same effect on me as well: that I remember it forever. I always remember when someone stops me to talk about interesting books I have in my hand or interesting conversations, especially with strangers.

I don't mind if other people are not interested in philosophy but do mind if they criticize me for my interest. — Jack Cummins

Same here. I mind if people criticize me for my interest and active work in the study of philosophy in my free time. I find it strange that people take so much offense to the subject when they themselves often have philosophical opinions without explicitly labeling their opinions as so.

I get comments from various people I know implying that I should be spending my time more productively — Jack Cummins

I also get the same kind of comments. However, I think it is more productive for my own life to be intensely studying philosophy. It helps my overall well-being and life, and I wouldn't trade studying philosophy for money, status, or material belongings. That is what is precisely so wonderful about the subject...in my opinion.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to reply and continue the thread. I find this topic extremely interesting for contemporary society. Cheers!

You do it because that's what you do. — jgill

I love this quote. It is what we do, and I love to do so every day. But I still find it perplexing that so many people have philosophical opinions, yet keep them to themselves. On the surface, it appears as if they do not like discussing philosophy person-to-person or they find it stupid to discuss it or something. I do not know, but this has been my experience with many people. They will have one philosophical conversation, even if they do not notice they are having one, and then will back off on other topics.

I have a slight misgiving with regards to the characterization of most individuals 'disinterested' in such modes of thought as being 'average' (presumably the case, should one infer from the title of this thread). That may be wise in a statistical context, but not a philosophical one. — Aryamoy Mitra

I am sorry that you have misgivings about the title. I did not mean to demean anyone or mean that people that seem disinterested in my own opinion to be 'average.' But I was simply stating a figure of speech, also, the title only allows so many characters. Most people, in my own experience, seem disinterested in having philosophical conversations. That is what I intended. I have discussed this with many other friends that are into philosophy and they have the same experiences. But I did not mean to imply a hasty generalization either, but it does seem that way.

Philosophy commits no promises, vows or certainties of any kind; it is a journey you elect to embark on without any knowledge of where it shall take you, or what it may bring to you. For many, that's candidly unappealing. — Aryamoy Mitra

I could not agree more with this above quote. Unfortunately, they are missing out, in my humble opinion! But they can live their lives as they want and there is beauty in that.

Discussing the metaphysics of the mind or the structure of human perception is, superficially, tangential to one's foremost motives and predilections. — Aryamoy Mitra

Ah, I see here where you are coming from now. This makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to comment and reply. I appreciate it very much. Cheers!

If philosophy is something one does or doesn't do based on whether it's fun or not then isn't it more of a recreational activity than something one does for practical benefits? — Judaka

I see where you are coming from now. This makes more sense as it is probably, for most philosophical folk, more recreational than practical.

Of course people who like philosophy say good things about it but meanwhile when people says something we don't like is important, we're already looking for reasons of why that isn't true. — Judaka

This is a great insight I often overlook. Well said here.

Honestly, even when I'm talking with other philosophers, I usually feel what they are saying is useless and without any practical value. Yet I'd much rather talk about that useless thing than something I find boring. All I am saying is that I think if you investigated yourself thoroughly then you would find that you are not much different from the people who aren't interested in your philosophy. You have your interests and enjoy talking about them and you have things you aren't interested in and don't like to talk about. You are not merely practising philosophy because you've realised importance and utility that others have failed to see, even if that's the explanation you'd like to give. — Judaka

I agree that I am not merely practicing philosophy because I have realized the importance and utility of it, the relative comparison to others is beside the point. I, and probably many others, still practice philosophy for recreation and the practicality, utility in practicing it. I am definitely not much different than others that don't like my philosophy, but that is also beside the point some, in my opinion. What I am trying to say is that most people seem disinterested, and sometimes act so, but they usually still have many philosophical opinions and give them regularly. But when they are confronted with these opinions with someone that practices and studies philosophy regularly, they back off, even if it is a very inviting and respectful discussion that is not condescending or too haughty for them to partake in with the study of philosophy. This is the perplexing part for me. They may be scared or nervous to enter the discussion or have a discussion at that moment or about a certain topic. All I am trying to say is that there seems to be taboo around certain philosophical discussions if it is known to the participants of these discussions going into the discussion that is in fact a philosophical one. But, I have also noticed, in these same people--in my family, friend groups, schoolmates--they love to spew out philosophical opinions while in other explicit discussions: politics is a good example.

Anyhow, thanks for the time to reply mate. I really appreciate it and loved the insights from you. Cheers!

I’d like to push back somewhat on the idea that philosophy isn’t important, or doesn’t have much value. To me, the value doesn’t lie in something tangible or quantifiable, but in how you experience life. — Pinprick

Could not agree more with this quote mate. This is so relevant to my life. Even if there isn't something tangible or quantifiable in studying philosophy for some, there definitely is value for how you experience life, and it may add more in-depth experiences for sure. Suppose we had two men with the same lives materially and situationally, but one actively studied philosophy and another didn't, if we assume that the one that doesn't actively study philosophy doesn't activate all that is being activated with study philosophy on his own, without philosophical material, then there would be a massive difference between the two in terms of depth of experience and the possibility of the student of philosophy having more meaning for sure.

What do both of you think about therapy/advice to others about life and philosophy? Do you think therapy, advice, and counseling have a lot to do with philosophy when it comes down to it? Without being haughty and condescending, when someone usually asks me for advice and suggestions on matters of life, I usually give them a philosophical, opinionated piece of advice that has helped me - through knowledge and/or wisdom from my experiences. People don't seem to dislike or not care about philosophy in this form... — The Questioning Bookworm

I’ve sometimes been gently accused on this forum of ‘wandering’ into psychology, as if that’s not a place that philosophy should go. I disagree with this - I understand people’s need to construct boundaries, but I think there is a lot about philosophy these days that needs to align psychology with other areas of thought, or that finds itself knocking on the door to psychology, so to speak, looking for a way through. My personal view of philosophy is that it’s ‘big picture’ thinking (which is unfortunately rare these days - even in philosophy!), so I’m not one to ‘stay in my lane’ in this respect.

Most of my philosophical discussions with my daughter start with her looking for advice and counselling. I can’t pretend I have all the answers, so this works well for us.

I’d like to push back somewhat on the idea that philosophy isn’t important, or doesn’t have much value. To me, the value doesn’t lie in something tangible or quantifiable, but in how you experience life. I feel that people interested in philosophy naturally find the world to be more mysterious and interesting than others, and I think doing philosophy feels purposeful, and I say that as essentially a nihilist. But there’s something that feels meaningful about discovering answers (or discovering that there are no answers) to big questions that most people never consider. So I wouldn’t say it isn’t without merit. It probably won’t help you pay the bills or put food on your table, but it may provide meaning. I also think it adds depth to your experience. I don’t know how many TV shows, or books, or games, or movies that I’ve found to be more sublime because I was aware of the implicit philosophical themes throughout them. Themes I wouldn’t have been aware of or able to appreciate without some knowledge of philosophy. — Pinprick

I vehemently disagree. Life tends to become a net negative when you begin to question everything around you. As was mentioned in the past philosophy does not answer questions it asks them. So far in my foray into it there were no answers to the questions posited. A lot of views for sure, but no real answer. It also has the habit of annihilating meaning, not providing it. Philosophy is the organon of extinction as one person put it. The same when it comes to movies. Once you start digging into their themes and the like the magic is gone.

It's ironic in a sense, but life is more meaningful and magical if you don't ask questions.

I’ve sometimes been gently accused on this forum of ‘wandering’ into psychology, as if that’s not a place that philosophy should go. I disagree with this - I understand people’s need to construct boundaries, but I think there is a lot about philosophy these days that needs to align psychology with other areas of thought, or that finds itself knocking on the door to psychology, so to speak, looking for a way through. My personal view of philosophy is that it’s ‘big picture’ thinking (which is unfortunately rare these days - even in philosophy!), so I’m not one to ‘stay in my lane’ in this respect.

Most of my philosophical discussions with my daughter start with her looking for advice and counselling. I can’t pretend I have all the answers, so this works well for us. — Possibility

Thanks for this reply and contribution. I would agree with what you say about how philosophy and psychology knock on each others doors from time to time. It is definitely interesting...

I vehemently disagree. Life tends to become a net negative when you begin to question everything around you. As was mentioned in the past philosophy does not answer questions it asks them. So far in my foray into it there were no answers to the questions posited. A lot of views for sure, but no real answer. It also has the habit of annihilating meaning, not providing it. Philosophy is the organon of extinction as one person put it. The same when it comes to movies. Once you start digging into their themes and the like the magic is gone.

It's ironic in a sense, but life is more meaningful and magical if you don't ask questions. — Darkneos

Hello, thanks for adding to the thread and discussion. I really appreciate it and love to hear what everyone has to add. The quote that life tends to become a net negative when you begin to question everything is probably true, and I agree. But that is an extreme case. If you question everything, yes, probably, life will most likely be a negative experience for one as there will be no clear answer to anything or anyone that person experiences. However, for most, I think questioning the most grey areas and philosophical dilemmas in one's life actually provide enjoyment and some sort of depth to one's life.

In my own life, I definitely have enjoyed life much more the more I question. The less I question things, the more depressed and anxious I am. This is because most social constructs and societal norms do not apply to many people these days. Just because everyone has to get a job and provide for themselves doesn't necessarily mean that they should not question that very system. What if one wants to work less and work for less money to be able to apply themselves in other areas of life more important to them? Well, if they never questioned the system in place, if they never questioned this more 'traditional, conventional' route, then I think it would be much harder for the individual to obtain a state of where they are content with their life. This is just one hypothetical example, but there are many other areas where one should be questioning things, and often, in my humble opinion. What if someone thinks of themselves as unfit to raise children? Should this person go along with others in society that tend to go along the route of getting married and having children? Should this person follow the government's growth view of generations having children more and more children, should they be a part of this movement or not? If someone has crippling anxiety over a certain past mistake or situation, questioning why they might be anxious over that mistake or event and what makes them anxious about these things may actually help give them a clear answer for them to work with. Of course, there are always the extreme cases of someone questioning their every action, every move, and every motive and making themselves more depressed and anxious. But, for most people, I think questioning things can lead to a healthier mental state.

Anyways, this is all just my 2 cents and opinion on your post, and on the subject at hand. Thank you very much for posting in the discussion thread. I love hearing from everyone on the topic, and your post had great insights in it. Cheers!

What if one wants to work less and work for less money to be able to apply themselves in other areas of life more important to them? — The Questioning Bookworm

I did that with my life, very successfully. The system doesn't necessarily have to be changed; one has to use one's imagination to solve this problem. Don't ask the government to grant your wish.

Hello, I am very happy to hear that. I have done that with my life for the past couple of years as well.

You realize that the only way such a life is possible is because the majority doesn't follow that way of living?

I'd be happy to work less and for less money, if people would demand less money from me to just keep on living where I am, so I didn't have to go work to get that money that they demand from me.

I have escaped from the drudgery of working too much for money even though landlords and others continue to want more money.

I like spending time writing on this site and exploring creative realms but one of my mother's friends made some comment about the fact that I was ' doing nothing'. I am busy reading, with ongoing writing and art projects along with philosophy but that counts for nothing in many ways in many people's eyes.

Some reading this site may see me as having an inflated ego, airing my views but that has to be seen in context. In many ways I am viewed as a complete failure, deserving to be thrown in the rubbish bin of society.

I stand by my right to philosophise. But my opinions and even the more credible thinkers are ranked lowly on the scale in the hierarchy of importance by those in power and the subservient masses.

Philosophy was i revered as mportant for ancient people but in the post apocalyptic society of today it is seen as mere esoterica.

You realize that the only way such a life is possible is because the majority doesn't follow that way of living? — Darkneos

For many I suspect working at a job you enjoy, or at least tolerate, provides an existential dimension to your life. I fail to see that your post provides any revelations about society. In my case I worked at a job I enjoyed and gave me time off for an important avocation.

But I admit, times have changed and it would be much more difficult to do what I did these days.

"At either end of the social spectrum there is a leisure class", E. Beck 1960s.

The revelation here is that working at a job that you enjoy is a luxury because several others have to work other jobs they don't exactly enjoy just to make that possible.

The revelation here is that working at a job that you enjoy is a luxury because several others have to work other jobs they don't exactly enjoy just to make that possible — Darkneos

"Don't exactly enjoy" leaves a lot of wiggle room. You probably have statistics to back up your statement. A couple of others on this forum have expressed a desire for society to support those who don't wish to work. How do you feel about that idea?

Life tends to become a net negative when you begin to question everything around you. — Darkneos

I agree with this. :up:

Why exactly would society support those who don't wish to work. It's different if they are unable to for some reason or another. But you are essentially asking society to validate parasitic lifestyles.