Someone may not like their job, may not like most of the duties required, and most of the people, but may still love the other aspects of it - family time, location, flexibility, vacation time, salary, etc.

I don’t think anyone on the thread supported people not working entirely - referring to your two posts talking about supporting people who don’t wish to work. All I’ve seen are comments on supporting someone taking jobs or leaving their current jobs for a job that pays less with less hours.

Most jobs that have higher pay require more hours and commitment. If I don’t want commitment above 40 hours per week, then I can chose my jobs in this light, and I do so in real life, all the time. For me, that is plenty of time to work. I have early mornings, evenings, and the weekends for family, friends, and hobbies. Anything above that, for my life, infringes on my personal life and things I actually view as more important than the mundane jobs I qualify for. I don’t think that this view of work and living a lifestyle like so is ‘parasitic’ at all. Most people with a college education, that is, usually have this opportunity, depending on the status of their financial management, marriage, and spending habits. Someone that has a degree, buying a house, marrying someone too young is too bad. If they can’t move jobs because of this that doesn’t make the people with degrees lifestyles—that have mobility—parasitic, in my opinion.

There is also the question of what we consider as work. Some people are out of work but contributing through caring roles or creative pursuits. While we need money to survive, is work simply about doing tasks for which we get paid?

I agree here as well. But there is still a difference if you live inside of a capitalist system as money buys mortgage, rent, supplies for work, clothes, food, gas, car, transportation, etc. I guess, if we want to get hypothetical, someone could quit their job, live as a homeless person, spend time scavenging for food, water, shelter, and spend most of their day 'working' by reading philosophical texts, asking questions, and having conversations with people and themselves. They could even start drafting a contribution to philosophy in their mind. So, obviously, if someone doesn't even have a conventional, capitalist job they can clearly be doing work every day, whilst also considering other factors such as the homelessness factor, which clears them from the need for money as the other conventional working person. What do you think?

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying but would not want to become homeless. I have moved twice this year and I am grateful to have accommodation. If I had to sleep out in the streets, especially in winter, and scavage for food I think I would be too drained to draft ideas for philosophy.

I just used it as a hypothetical example to explore the concept of 'work,' and homelessness was just a somewhat extreme case. But I agree with what you were saying about creative 'work' and care 'work' should be treated as work as well.

Okay, your case of homelessness is an extreme reality but unfortunately this could be the grim reality for many, including many who do wish to find work.

Of course it brings us back to the real basics of the human condition. We are so used to the 'comforts', to quote Darkneos and what will happen to those individuals, philosophers or not, who are brought to harshest physical conditions ? I am inclined to think that some will survive and others will crumble. I like to think that I am solid but we all have our limits.

Is physical or psychological suffering worse? Also, what happens when someone experiences a profound degree of both at the same time?

Of course it brings us back to the real basics of the human condition. We are so used to the 'comforts', to quote Darkneos and what will happen to those individuals, philosophers or not, who are brought to harshest physical conditions ? I am inclined to think that some will survive and others will crumble. I like to think that I am solid but we all have our limits. — Jack Cummins

I am not claiming that I, or most, or many philosophers, other thinkers, and other individuals, in general, would survive the harshest physical conditions will crumble or survive in a certainty sense at all. Some will survive and some will crumble and, of course, we all have our limits. I agree with this 100%. I used the hypothetical homeless person to illustrate that even people without conventional jobs or luxury can do 'work' with no monetary or material compensation.

Is physical or psychological suffering worse? — Jack Cummins

Depends. I don't think there is any true answer because what if we examine the situation where one causes the other? Let's examine. What if someone suffers from a mental disorder and constantly suffered from early childhood of crippling anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, and social issues. Let's assume these features of their mental disorder developed over time and become worse as this person grew up. Now the person, from dwelling on their anxious periods, awkwardness, and cloudy sense of themselves has a confused mind. Their mind haunts them as they are not able to control it and most experiences they remember about their life, time and time again, leads them down a rabbit hole of them remembering that they have these miserable symptoms of their disorder in almost all stages of their life. Now let us develop this hypothetical person even further. As a result of these symptoms of their mental disorder, this person has had extreme trouble having any 'true' friends. When this person was introduced to people in school, sports, or activities people treating them nicely and people treating them poorly. Children and teenagers that they came in contact with through these phases of life thought this person was weird and bullied them sometimes. So, even if they have 'friends' that happen to be nice to them and spend time with them, due to this 'trauma' or poor social experiences they are constantly battling in their mind whether or not people are their 'true' friends or not. Next, due to all of the above, their concentration is poor and they can barely read or write for long periods of time in the way that their school teachers and potential job superiors would want, causing them to be alienated from large parts of society that most people experience. I think this illustrates someone that suffers a terrible mental disorder that has affected their life greatly with grave psychological suffering.

But what about physical suffering? Have people liked so not endured physical suffering due to their mental disorder that causes their psychological suffering? People are not saints. We know this from stories about neglectful and abusive parents. What if these parents neglect and/or physically abuse a person like our example? What if our hypothetical person cannot escape and is not known to the neighbors in the neighborhood, government, social services to save them? I do want to go much further, but I think you get where I am going with this part of the argument. The parents of this person could beat them and inflict physical suffering possibly due to their mental disorder/psychological suffering. So, in this very specific, hypothetical case, there may be a cause of psychological suffering having an effect of physical suffering on that person. Additionally, our hypothetical person could commit a crime against another person caused by their inability to control their impulses or delirium. What if the police show up and beat them senselessly from police brutality, our person is convicted guilty and sentenced to prison where he receives more physical suffering from beatings of other inmates for years?

We can also flip the example around. What if a soldier goes to war and is captured as a prisoner of war where he endures years of physical suffering? What if the physical suffering leads to mental/psychological suffering years after his release once he returns home? Obviously, there are many examples where one can lead to another and many examples where one could endure both. Therefore, from our hypothetical examples, and from everything I've heard about other people enduring both or just one of the forms of suffering, I do not think there one is worse than the other at all.

Also, what happens when someone experiences a profound degree of both at the same time? — Jack Cummins

I do not know as I have never experienced it first hand. There is no way for me to know. But we can ponder and hypothesize.

I hope I answered your questions the best I could for the sake of argument and thought. What do you think about the answer(s) and what is your opinion on the questions? Thanks for asking and engaging in this thread. Cheers!

I don’t think anyone on the thread supported people not working entirely - referring to your two posts talking about supporting people who don’t wish to work — The Questioning Bookworm

Not on this thread, but in the past on this forum. I recall Frank Apisa (who was expelled) was one. I certainly never took that position. I've mentioned before meeting young Brits in England in 1985 who pooled their doles to rent a house, and then pursued their common interest, which paid nothing.

But you are still working though, we are talking about flat out just not working at all. That is parasitic, it seems you misunderstood me.

I understand that I and who I am talking about in my posts are still working. But the original conversation stemmed from people who were working. If you go back and look at the posts, you brought up people supporting people that don’t want to work at all. So that’s why I keep bringing up people who are still ‘working’ because that was the original discussion.

Oh, okay. Gotcha