• TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Suppose that a madman kidnaps you and a stranger. He then gives you a choice: you must either have yourself get tortured mildly by him by having you sit in a room where you have to listen to a loud scream for an hour or have the stranger get tortured severely by him where the stranger will have all his fingers and toes mutilated one by one. He also explains that after you make the choice regarding who gets tortured, he will give you an amnesia pill to make to you forget your choice so that you cannot feel good for saving the stranger from the torture nor could you feel guilty for allowing him to get tortured. This amnesia pill will not make you forget the torture itself if you choose to have yourself tortured though. Who would you choose to have tortured?

    I’m a bit divided on this thought experiment because I can see good reason to choose either option. On one hand, I think it is much more likely that we have reason to care about our own suffering than that we have reason to care about the suffering of others. On the other hand, given the greater impact that the torture will have on the strangers life, it may give us reason to choose the more speculative option. On an emotional level, it feels like I should help the stranger because mutilation just makes me sick to my stomach. I would rather die than have to undergo the stranger’s torture. But, I think my emotions are not properly taking into account the amnesia pill and how it would make me forget everything. It’s also worth noting that I choose to do nothing about the immense torture that goes on in the world on a daily basis. I’m not willing to have myself tortured mildly to save others from severe torture because I don’t have to see or think about the immense torture of many who live in this world and the amnesia pill seems to simulate this consideration.
    1. Who would you have tortured? (5 votes)
        You
        60%
        Stranger
        40%
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    This is all in how you see morality. The emotion of suffering is not what morality is about to myself. It is about the capabilities and existence of the world for today and tomorrow. Sure, you might both forget the incident, but the stranger isn't going to heal from that anytime soon, and might even have their hands and feet crippled for life.

    Considering its just a scream you have to listen to that you will soon forget, and there will be no long lasting damage to yourself, I view it as unquestionable that I would take the torture instead of the stranger.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    Well, I think this question kinda goes beyond morality and more in the territory of general decision making. It is about to what extent should one focus their energy on morality rather than focus our energy in making our own life better. Let me ask you a similar question, should you be doing everything that you can to make sure that children in Africa don’t have to experience severe suffering or early death? The case in the OP seems to be analogous to this real life dilemma of us being able to prevent major tragedies in Africa with minor effort and the overwhelming choice most of us make to focus on our own life rather than helping the needy strangers on the other side of the world.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    Bottom line for me is that while maybe I can control what I do, I cannot control what anyone else does. With that, and so far as enemies or bad guys are concerned, no weakness, no warning, no hesitation. Whether or not there is any utility in sharing this with the bad guy depends on circumstances. But it seems basic wisdom to me to distinguish between games and things that are not games, to be able to tell the difference, and to act accordingly.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    What if this madman that has kidnapper you and stranger has done this countless of times before and he always kept his word? Wouldn’t it be rational to believe that he would do what he said he would do given his history of doing what he said he would?
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I view morality as a social mechanism for the benefit of society based on pragmatism. Where enough choose what is best for them leads to an outcome which is bad for everyone, I see the necessity for a cultural counterforce. It is for the betterment of society that that exists, I am willing to hear why I should or shouldn't do something to that end, to the limit of what I am willing to sacrifice. When someone does something that is neither pragmatic for themselves nor pragmatic for society, I don't know what to call that but to me, that is not morality. Perhaps that person is acting in accordance with their emotions or their values but I don't see obligation there.

    I don't see any obligation here for me to do that which is bad for myself but irrelevant on a broader scale. Besides that, I am much less sympathetic to issues of morality where the individual is forced to do something significant in order to not be immoral. Also, without these ideas about asking what is pragmatic in a broader social sense, I don't think someone being the same species as I entitles them to any kind of treatment from me. So even though I'm not really sure how bad my torture really is or how loud the screaming is, I think I would choose that the stranger is tortured.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460

    Fair enough, but I tend to think that the notion of obligation is pretty incoherent. Also, I have a hard time understanding why we should base morality on the benefit of society rather than the benefit of sentient life as a whole.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Fair enough, but you didn't follow up with an explanation to your statements so I think we can end the conversation here.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    I can offer you a short explanation for each statement if you’d like.

    Regarding the issue of viewing morality as a social mechanism for benefiting society. I find that strange mainly because I view society as a collective mechanism for benefiting ourselves or benefiting humans or maybe sentient creatures as whole. I think most of us only care that society exists because we benefit from living in a society. Some people would extend this interest to our families or the human race as a whole or maybe as far back as sentient life as a whole. But, it would seem strange for morality to be used as a mechanism for benefiting society because society is only good because of the benefits it provides to people. If you imagine a society that benefits no one, everyone would want this society to crumble.

    Regarding the issue of moral obligations. It’s hard for me to understand how there could be moral obligations if you
    are physically able to violate those obligations and sometimes get away with it unscathed
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Society is just a group of individuals in aggregate, I don't understand what you mean by "society is a collective mechanism". For me, morality means considering how you would like or how you think society would best function and acting in accordance with what is required for that to happen. Thus, I can do that which is not in my best interests because I am also considering the best interests of others. This is still pragmatic in doing what is best for me because when everyone does what is best for themselves and others, it is far better than everyone doing what is best for themselves in spite of others. I think we can discern this intellectually but we're also hardwired in such a way that this happens naturally to some extent.

    Intellectually, I only respect this kind of morality but I'm not consistent on this because it depends on my feelings. So maybe in real life, I would take the torture because I felt sorry for the other victim and I'm fired up over the situation but I don't think I'm obligated to help the stranger.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Society is just a group of individuals in aggregate, I don't understand what you mean by "society is a collective mechanism".Judaka

    Well, society could be thought of as a collective mechanism if we consider society as something that could flourish or crumble. If society is just individuals in aggregate then it’s hard to understand what do people mean when they speak of fears of society crumbling. After all, individuals have always operated in aggregate and will always continue to do so. So, under your definition of society, it would be incoherent to speak of societal decay or collapse(unless almost everyone dies). Society can only be restructured or transformed under your definition. But, some philosophers might say that society is defined more by its laws and its institutions rather than the individuals living inside of it. Under this view, speaking of societal collapse is coherent because the death of all our institutions would entail the death of our society and any new society that may come after will no longer be the same society. In addition, you could have a group of individuals living close to each other without laws and institutions. This environment could be considered too chaotic to be called a society.
  • Book273
    768
    I chose to accept the version of "torture" for myself as you described. Having said that, your description of torture; having to listen to someone scream for an hour, is basically a bad hour at work for me, which I currently do for a decent cheque. Not so intimidating or concerning really, but it depends what you are used to. I do not feel particularly obligated to help the stranger, however since I get that experience at work already, sometimes for far longer than an hour, buddy can avoid having his fingers broken, I will just get another coffee once the screaming stops.
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