domestic terrorist — ssu

Difference between a "domestic terrorist" and "foreign combatant" = raising your hand and saying whatever to a 10 second pledge (that really means nothing to pretty much any religion [the world is temporal and without everlasting meaning or consequence]). So. Yeah.

Hence Americans can be in amazement of other prison systems — ssu

Not really.

Norway population - 5 million (150k sq. mi.)

USA population - 350 million (3.8m sq. mi.)

That's 70x more in population with only 25x more space.

If I added 70 people to your household overnight do you think things would run as smoothly as they do now? How do you think things would be? The US hasn't had 5 million since before the 1800s. (or to be fair if i randomly added 2-3 people to your house based on the proportions)

While Norway is one of the least population-dense countries in the world, the US is below average. Though, I am not sure to what extent these figures are due to the prevalence of uninhabitable terrain.

Do you actually think the US incarceration rate can be explained by such factors? There's a difference between being a patriot and making your country worse by ignoring obvious problems in favour of exceptionalism.

Much is explained, I think, by looking at the comparison per capita that the US government spends on public education per year, and for incarceration.

That's 70x more in population with only 25x more space.

If I added 70 people to your household overnight do you think things would run as smoothly as they do now? — Outlander

So how then China or India have far less prisoners than the US?

Far more people in those countries than the US.

So how then China or India have far less prisoners than the US? — ssu

I've heard a few less than flattering stories that offer plenty explanation. Do I know if they're true? Nope. Not one to spread propaganda. Though it doesn't take much imagination bearing in mind commonly available knowledge.

Essentially people "know better". Take that as you please. All nations/peoples actively work to maintain their own cultures, customs, and norms. Some joke around that American culture is really just a lack of one. Not everyones a melting pot, basically. Less to disagree with/rebel against.

Fyodor Dostoevsky once said: "The degree of a civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." — The Questioning Bookworm

As far as assertions go, it definitely passes the sniff test. I'm of a moral persuasion that only tolerates incarceration as a form of intervention/rehabilitation. Prisons in America are far from places of reform; they're places of suffering we use to extract blood and sweat as a proxy for justice, and which are obviously meant to serve as deterrents to would be criminals.

Given that America's strategy of crime prevention through threat is failing so despicably, there's no good defence for the on-going torture and destruction of millions of people. Imagine being incarcerated for drug possession (addiction), and then being extorted and murdered in prison by the racist gangs that thrive in its system of neglect and deprivation...

That's justice in America...

US incarcerations rates will drop if there's a real effort to stop incarcerating non-violent offenders and legalizing drug use...

...I did see, by the way, that Oregon decriminalized heroin, cocaine, and meth, reducing the sentence to the equivalent of a traffic ticket. — Hanover

Even though it's only a half step, the American legal/punitive system is so far behind in this that it would do an unfathomable amount of good.

The conflict of interest apparent in private prison systems in general makes them hard to justify (Canada has an issue here as well: our incarceration rate may only be 1/6th of America's, but the quality of our prisons isn't too much better).

Difference between a "domestic terrorist" and "foreign combatant" = raising your hand and saying whatever to a 10 second pledge (that really means nothing to pretty much any religion [the world is temporal and without everlasting meaning or consequence]). So. Yeah. — Outlander

Citizenship does matter. Ask any illegal immigrant.

Especially with laws of war these factors are important, hence it's no wonder that with laws on terrorism they are similar. If you are a soldier in wartime and wear an uniform of your military and surrender, it's a war crime to kill you. If you don't have that uniform on and the enemy captures you, it isn't a war crime to kill you as a spy even today. So yes, it comes down to things like the clothes you wear.

Where were you thinking Felonia should be? Depending on one's politics, Manhattan? Georgia? Los Angeles? Puerto Rico? North Dakota? Isle Royale (its in Lake Superior--(206 square miles--much bigger than Manhattan and unoccupied, except by wolves and moose)? Aleutian Islands? Or maybe Russia would rent us a couple of gulags in Siberia. — Bitter Crank

I wish to thank you for your questions. Your probing inquiries allow me to better sort out my ideas so that their implementation will go more smoothly.

I was imagining a dusty field that goes on as far as the eye can see, with small patches of grass, crushed soda cans, and spent condoms littered throughout. The locals will not be run off, but they'll be permitted to stay. I expect they will be unshaven (even the women), with dark sullen faces, muttering about their failures and the humiliation of their having to be housed with the damned.

The precise location of where this less than utopian society will be staged is not as important as it is that it just meet my exacting standards. Not to be a prima donna, but I am so over the incompetence of others in bringing my visions to reality. But if you insist upon an actual address, I think the burning streets of Portland might do (assuming they have a field with sullen, humiliated people nearby), or perhaps the frozen island in your neck of the woods you mentioned, although I would expect you to serve as warden if I'm going to do you the favor of bringing that industry to you.

but we should spend less money on upkeep and hiring guards and more money on mental health specialists, educators, etc. for prisons, in my humble opinion. Also, we should not be using prisoners for free labor. Slavery ring a bell? Prisoners are cut off from the world as it is, most of them can't vote, and in some places, they are used for free/slave-like labor. This seems to be a problem too. I feel like there would be pushback more from individuals who aren't even in prison. — The Questioning Bookworm

Aren't prisons in the US required to compensate prisoners for their labor? Obviously the wages are very low and from what I understand the small wages they receive mostly just go back into the prison commissary. Personally I think its best if prisoners just keep busy whether its work or attending class. I just don't think in the US, especially in some of the southern states, you're going to see a huge outpouring of sympathy for prisoners.

Can budgeting be properly executed to allocate money more toward rehab rather than the way things are?

Maybe? I was a bit surprised you'd be willing to cut funding for upkeep or at least try to divert that funding into mental health services, but for me it would just be a matter of how effective these services are and whether they can be linked to less violence in prisons. Personally I see things relating to upkeep - temperature, cleanliness, food services - as being quite important.

As far as assertions go, it definitely passes the sniff test. I'm of a moral persuasion that only tolerates incarceration as a form of intervention/rehabilitation. Prisons in America are far from places of reform; they're places of suffering we use to extract blood and sweat as a proxy for justice, and which are obviously meant to serve as deterrents to would be criminals.

Given that America's strategy of crime prevention through threat is failing so despicably, there's no good defence for the on-going torture and destruction of millions of people. Imagine being incarcerated for drug possession (addiction), and then being extorted and murdered in prison by the racist gangs that thrive in its system of neglect and deprivation...

That's justice in America... — VagabondSpectre

This is an interesting insight. Thanks for the reply/contribution to the thread. I agree that prisons should be used for rehab/intervention but not just as a deterrent or a deterrent in general.