Also prior in space. That's the point. If a particular event or phenomena can be contextualized in more than one way, there's no compulsion to think of alternatives. Space being a more immediate experience than time, if it were X that were riding his cycle on that road, X would've no need to consider the temporal aspect of his experience, space being a more familiar, a more direct, a more obvious notion. — TheMadFool
But, is there a spatial sequence as well with respect to the food counter? — TheMadFool
To me, these ideas comes into play only once there's something to be objective/arbitrary about. — TheMadFool
First the notion of space needs to be apprehended... — TheMadFool
It is not "also prior in space", that's the point that you are not getting. The "first mile" is the one that you traverse first in time and is called "first" because of that. If, somehow your spatial existence allowed you to traverse the other mile, which was further away, first in time, then you would call that other mile the "first mile". But the nature of spatial-temporal existence does not allow you start at the furthest away mile, so the closer mile is called "first". But it is not called "first" because it is closer spatially, it is called "first" because it is closer temporally. — Metaphysician Undercover
it is always arbitrary, being created from a subjective perspective. Defining your sequence as relative to the food counter is that arbitrary subjective perspective. — Metaphysician Undercover
Sure, but confusing space and time, or conflating them together does not allow you to properly apprehend "the notion of space" — Metaphysician Undercover
Imagine today is 1 Jan 2021. The day following that is 2 Jan 2021 and the day following that is 3 Jan 2021, and so on and so forth. First things first, we have to agree on the sequence/order of the dates: basically, we have to concur that if dates are given a numerical sequence then they will be experienced in the order 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,...and so on. Said differently, the date 1 Jan 2021 comes before the date 2 Jan 2021 and that date comes before 3 Jan 2021... Are we on the same page here? — TheMadFool
If we are then imagine now that you're living through the month of January 2021. A few days go by and you've now arrived at the date 4 Jan 2021. What date was before 4 Jan 2021? Pause a bit and go back to what we've agreed on viz. the sequence of dates and that Jan 1 2021 comes before 2 Jan 2021 and that comes before 3 Jan 2021 and this date (3 Jan 2021) comes before 4 Jan 2021. You have to answer the question "what date was before 4 Jan 2021?" with "3 Jan 2021" but 3 Jan 2021 is in the past and, as we've found out, it's perfectly reasonable to refer to 3 Jan 2021 as the date before 4 Jan 2021. The bottom line is this: given a sequence of numbers, and dates are that, you have to ask yourself "what comes before a date x?" Surely, the date x - 1, right? But, this is obvious, the date x - 1 is in the past. — TheMadFool
My point is that you order the events that will occur - those that are in the future - by assigning them ordinal numbers such as first, second, third, and so on. If ordered thus, it's obvious that you'll experience the said events in the sequence first, second, third, and so on.. — TheMadFool
Allowing that these events are experienced, let them flow through the present into the past and suppose that you're now at the fourth event. At this point ask yourself, "what event occurred before this moment, this moment when I'm experiencing the fourth event?" Obviously, the answer is the third event which we know is in the past. In short, it's ok to refer to the past with the word "before". — TheMadFool
You mean to say that calendars are bogus? People seem to plan events with calendars and excepting the odd contingency, their plans seem fairly well executed. I don't see how that's possible if the future weren't sequenced as you seem to be claiming. — TheMadFool
Too, your point was the future becomes the past. You'll have to explain to me how things changed so radically between the two that they're, as per your claims, no longer comparable in any sense of that word. To my reckoning, the sequence in which events occurred in the future must be preserved in the past and they are, right? :chin: — TheMadFool
No, we're not on the same page at all, you're missing the point. If today is Jan 1 2021, then Jan 2 2021 is not existent, it has not yet happened, and therefore it is not a day which can be counted. The only days which can be counted are the days of the past, the real days which have occurred. So we start with Jan1, and since it is present, not completed we can assign 0 to it, as the starting point. After this, is the first day which has occurred, Dec 31 and the second, Dec 30, etc.. Therefore in our ordering of the days, Jan 1 2021 is prior to Dec 31 2020 — Metaphysician Undercover
I suggest that the only reason you are inclined to say that the events further back in time are before the others is that you adhere to the convention of a linear time, which stretches from the past, through the present and into the future. My argument is that this is a mistaken model of time because it does not properly account for the difference between future and past — Metaphysician Undercover
I wouldn't say that calendars are bogus, they are a convention of convenience. My argument is that such conventions of convenience can very often hide the truth when the reality of the matter is complex, and more difficult to understand, just like the convention of saying that the sun comes up and the sun goes down. — Metaphysician Undercover
Do you not recognize that the difference between the possibility of something, and the actual existence of something, is a radical difference? This is the difference between future and past. Notice that you must live with what has happened in the past. Whether you like the event which occurred or not, it cannot be changed and you must live with the consequences of it. However, a future event which appears unpleasant, you can take measures to avoid, and one which you desire you can attempt to make happen. This is a radical difference, and acknowledgement of that difference seems to permeate all of our living activities. The past ensures that you are what you are at the present, but the future allows you to change. — Metaphysician Undercover
I worded that wrongly. Do forgive the unnecessary diversion. I meant to say that as it is temporally sequenced, it is also spatially sequenced. That's all and that possibility - spatial sequence - being alive and kicking in the scenario I described and space being a more immediate experience - it's kinda in your face, or, if you prefer, sticks out like a sore thumb - and thus, space being more noticeable than time, I suggested that X, if he's the one riding along that road, would feel no necessity for looking at the temporal aspect of his journey. That's what you seem to be ignoring. — TheMadFool
I suggested that X, if he's the one riding along that road, would feel no necessity for looking at the temporal aspect of his journey. That's what you seem to be ignoring. — TheMadFool
If this doesn't convince you think of children...which concept do you think comes to them more readily - space or time? They seem to be able to handle space easily and before time, which has to be taught to them and, from my experience with my own daughter, clocks are a mystery to children. I'll say no more. Please reconsider your position on the matter. If you still find something wrong with what I'm saying, let's just agree to disagree. Thank you. — TheMadFool
s far as I can tell, you're conflating the notions of arbitrary with relativity. All sequences must be/are relative in the sense that we can choose an origin, the beginning, the start and that beginning, start or point of origin can be anywhere in space. Arbitrariness has a connotation - that of being false/mistaken in some sense - that isn't applicable in the context of my post. — TheMadFool
Where is the confusion in two trees being separated by a distance in space and two states of a fruit being separated by a duration? — TheMadFool
I wonder whether "spatial sequence" has any really meaning, or is it just a misnomer? If you had one, two, three, four or more distinct things with spatial separation between them, what would make you think that they form a sequence? I can see how one might say that they make a spatial pattern, but what aspects of the pattern would make you say that it is a sequence, if you are not inferring a temporal order to the things? — Metaphysician Undercover
I do not see how X would would refer to one mile as the first mile, and the other mile as the second mile without looking at the temporal aspect of his journey. You seem to think that X might somehow look back on his journey, remove the temporal aspect of that journey, and then refer to one mile as the first and the other as the second. But I don't think that makes any sense. If X could really look at that journey without the temporal aspect, why would he be inclined to order one or the other as first? — Metaphysician Undercover
Understanding the human concept of time, or space, is completely different from apprehending the thing's existence. I think children apprehend time long before they apprehend space. Time is something very real and concrete to them, as they learn to wait to be fed, and they are given mealtimes, and bedtimes etc.. Space is very abstract. Sure, they recognize that there is distance between them and others, but is this really apprehending "space", as being made to wait is apprehending "time"? — Metaphysician Undercover
My argument is that a temporal sequence is not arbitrary, that's the point. There is a real "now" which serves as the objective start, and this makes the true sequence not arbitrary. To the contrary, your assumption of a spatial sequence is simply false/mistaken, because there is no spatial principle which allows you to order first and second. Therefore you are claiming that there is such a thing as first and second, justified completely by spatial reference, but this is a false proposition. — Metaphysician Undercover
The confusion is in you naming the trees first and second, and asserting that this designation is done completely through spatial reference, without reference to time. — Metaphysician Undercover
You mean to say that the earth will not rotate on its axis or that the moon will stop revolving around the earth or that the earth will not go around the sun if it's in the future? These are the phenomena, fairly dependable I should say, on which a day, a month and a year are defined. If they will occur, there's a certain rhythm, a period, and these periods are days, months, years, all sequenceable i.e. we can assign numbers to them. I won't discuss this anymore. Thank you. — TheMadFool
An order in time that exists in the future will persist through the present and into the past i.e. given two events x and y, if x is before y in the future, x will be before y in the present and x has to be before y in the past also. — TheMadFool
I checked, and 1 mile means the first mile spatially - the 1 means the first length that's 1 mile long and mile 2 is the second length that's again 1 mile long, again spatially. — TheMadFool
While I can't confirm your claim, I'll admit that I sympathize with it. I suppose that makes me a time absolutist like Newton but then we have this mountain of evidence gathered from relativity experiments that contradict your position and my intuitions on the matter for what they're worth. FYI, even if time is objective in the sense that there's, what you call a NOW, the alleged real beginning, it doesn't matter to X's conceptualization of time for however much time has passed since that beginning, the change in the condition of the apple occurs in a duration that he actually experiences in those days by the tree. — TheMadFool
If you have two spatial lengths of one mile, there is no spatial principle which makes one of them the first, and the other the second. — Metaphysician Undercover
To say that one is closer to you is not a spatial principle, it is a subjective principle — Metaphysician Undercover
But then such determinations are not objective and therefore cannot be any part of an objective concept of space. — Metaphysician Undercover
What I don't agree with is that one could make a conception of order through space alone. Take the Fibonacci spiral for example. This is the spatial representation of a numerical sequence. This appears like a totally spatial order, but it really is not, because it requires a very specific beginning. And the beginning, being 0; cannot be represented spatially. — Metaphysician Undercover
Dependability does not give you a countable thing. For example, I might know that the bus will be there in the morning, for me to step on. This is very dependable. But I cannot count the stepping on to the bus, as an instance of stepping on to the bus, until after it occurs. Likewise, regardless of how the calendar numbers the days, we really cannot count them until after they have occurred. — Metaphysician Undercover
I can't see how you can say that an order of time exists in the future. — Metaphysician Undercover
A distance of 2 miles is counted from a point which is designated as 0. This 0 is followed by a 1 mile mark and then a 2 mile mark. When you start walking from 0 along this distance, mile 1 is the first mile and mile 2 is the second mile. — TheMadFool
I wouldn't say subjective because it seems to give the wrong impression that one is wrong because there's no objectivity in it. The correct word, in my opinion, is "relative". What's closer or farther is matter of one's location in space but that doesn't mean close and far aren't spatial concepts. Their definitions, as you already know, are in terms of how short/long the distance between you and things are. — TheMadFool
Here you're conflating the absolute/relative with subjectivity/objectivity. X's position and his spatial relations are relative in the sense they depend on his location in space and not subjective in the sense it's just a matter of opinion no matter where X is. The concept of space that X forms in his mind is objective in the sense that it exists for everyone and everything though it's true that the spatial relations within space are relative. — TheMadFool
By dependable I mean to emphasize the regularity, the essence of an objectively measurable length of time which then becomes the basis of a unit of time which in turn becomes the basis of sequencing time itself in regular intervals. The rotation of the earth takes approximately 24 hours and this is the basis for the unit of time we all know as a day. The future can be sequenced in terms of days. There's no necessity for the future to be real to sequence/count it. We simply decide, based on the unit of time that seems relevant to the events that we're expecting, to sequence it numerically. — TheMadFool
Imagine this. Suppose there are two events that are part of our future: both events are chemical reactions and event 1 is a chemical reaction that takes 1 minute to complete at which point a certain container of chemicals will change color to red, and event 2 is another chemical reaction that takes 2 minutes to complete and when that's done, a container of chemicals will change color to green. — TheMadFool
Obviously the colors red and green in the container of chemicals are in the future at time 0 but you can sequence them as the first color you'll see is red and then only, second, you'll see green. — TheMadFool
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