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↪unenlightened So what happens when your visual cortex is stimulated directly, and you have a red visual experience? It is, after all, dark in the brain as you noted. — Marchesk
An inference from what? Experiences in your head lead you to infer that the things you experience as outside your head are experiences in your head? — unenlightened
My problem with it is the implicit assumption that the apple is red the way it looks red to the perceiver. In my view, the awareness of red is added by the perceiver. — Marchesk
Explain how everyone knows to add red to the same apples. — unenlightened
Explain how everyone knows to add red to the same apples.
— unenlightened
Their brains are stimulated to see red. — Marchesk
By telepathy? or by some feature of the apples? — unenlightened
Electrical signals from the cones in their eyes. — Marchesk
Dude, you know it's the wavelength of the photons. I don't know what telepathy has to do with anything. — Marchesk
And yet it is a great mystery to others. For example, how come wave lengths get coded in colours? Where does that happen?It's called colour vision, and it's no great mystery to me. — unenlightened
And yet it is a great mystery to others. For example, how come wave lengths get coded in colours? Where does that happen? — Olivier5
Some of us are trying to grasp how we tell a red apple from a green apple, and think the difference is somehow in the brain. — unenlightened
Bite the fucking bullet man. How do everyone's eyes get to signal the same apples as red? Is it telepathy , or is there something about the apples that tells the eyes to signal red? Or come up with another explanation that actually explains. — unenlightened
Dude, you know it's the wavelength of the photons. I don't know what telepathy has to do with anything. The difficult thing to account for is the redness, not the causal chain. — Marchesk
If all else us the same, the apple, the light, etc, then why are there color blind people? — Harry Hindu
The "difficult thing" is resolved by thinking of everything as information, not "physical" objects. — Harry Hindu
The apple isn't red. It is ripe. The light isn't red. Its an EM wave that has a 650nm wavelength. — Harry Hindu
People have disagreed about apple colours before. When they do, are they seeing a different apple?if we consistently and independently agree about which apples are red and which are green (which we do), then either the apples are different or our brains are in direct communication by telepathy — unenlightened
The colors we see are in the brain, because that's where the perception is formed. The cause comes from outside, but the cause is different from the colors seen. — Marchesk
Right, so we continue troubleshooting. If we take one of each type of patient and prod their brains with a metal rod, does either one experience red? If the patient with a defect in their eyes experiences red but the latter patient does not, than that seems to imply that colors are generated in the brain, not by the eyes.It's not all the same. Color blind people either have a defect in their eyes or in their brains. — Marchesk
I'm not sure I understand your question. If everything is information, then the way we think about red apples as physical objects is wrong. Physical objects, like colors, exist only in the brain as digitized representations of an analog world.Agreed. So where does the red come in to play? I agree that information comes into the brain from the senses interacting with the world. But then what? — Marchesk
How does one distinguish between the illusion of red and red that is not an illusion. Red appears the same way to me.We realists call that 'an illusion'. It's not a real red visual cortex, the way a red apple is a real red apple. This is a very useful distinction for a philosopher, that allows us to admit the possibility of error. Sometimes, one might mistake a stick insect for a stick, or a mirage for an oasis, or a bang on the head for a red glow in the sky. — unenlightened
In this case, there is a demonstrable difference between the objective and the subjective. — Olivier5
if I could see the entirety of it in colors, the world would like quite different. The apple would not be quite so red and solid looking.
Moral of the story is just because the world is experienced a certain way, doesn't mean it is that way. — Marchesk
Alas for the indirect realist, whenever there is a demonstrable difference between the objective and the subjective, it demonstrates that there is an objective, that we can be deceived about. — unenlightened
I don't think that was ever said or implied. We represent, or model, in our brains.We do not find that we see in our brains. — unenlightened
Alas for the naïve realist, it also demonstrates that there is a subjective perception as well, that perception is distinct from its objects. — Olivier5
We represent in our brains. — Harry Hindu
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