I beg to differ. Your premise says nothing about storing traces or not storing traces.So, now that you think about it, it probably is all to do with storing traces in a memory.
So, you probably reject the premise. Ok. — bongo fury
You obviously didn't understand the question. If its neither, then you haven't said anything useful. I'm asking what it is that is in our heads, not what is not in our heads.Are you quite sure you are sticking with the premise?... — bongo fury
Sounds like you have person-sees-fruit events in your head which contradicts your assertion that it is "neither".How apples look like is how they participate in person-sees-fruit events, which are illumination events, which we learn to differentiate among through practice: active participation in such events. — bongo fury
So, now that you think about it, it probably is all to do with storing traces in a memory.
So, you probably reject the premise. Ok.
— bongo fury
I beg to differ. Your premise says nothing about storing traces or not storing traces. — Olivier5
If all organisms and even plants can learn, they can link past and present events, in the present. How do you explain that if no trace of the past is left in the organism? — Olivier5
If it's neither, then you haven't said anything useful. — Harry Hindu
How are songs different than apples. — Harry Hindu
Personally, i think the use of the terms, "direct" and "indirect" are the cause of the problem. — Harry Hindu
Sounds like you have person-sees-fruit events in your head — Harry Hindu
it says no representations in the brain. Storable units corresponding to (representing) external events are excluded by implication. (Was my reasoning.) — bongo fury
Because I meant memories in the sense of rememberings. — bongo fury
If you can remember events from the past, you must have some way to record them. — Olivier5
The opposite view is that "recalling a scene to mind" is a uniquely human skill of practicing and maintaining a narrative, ideally a highly flexible but consistent one. (E.g. Bartlett.) — bongo fury
The opposite view is that "recalling a scene to mind" is a uniquely human skill of rehearsing and maintaining a narrative, ideally a highly flexible but consistent one. (E.g. Bartlett.) — bongo fury
But is it reasonable to expect that any animals without language ever "recall a scene to mind"? — bongo fury
But is it reasonable to expect that any animals without language ever "recall a scene to mind"? Except whilst asleep and dreaming, of course... — bongo fury
I doubt that we ourselves do it before we grasp the reference of words and pictures.
I'm open to persuasion though. — bongo fury
Then its brain shiver events all the way down? If not, then the brain shivers represent events that are not brain shivers. If not, then how are brain shiver events about events that are not just other brain shivers?Songs are sound events. Having them "in your head" is practicing brain (and general neural and muscular) shivers that refine your readiness to engage with and participate in the sound events. — bongo fury
OK - but the basic idea that episodic memory is reconstructed rather than recalled seems uncontroversial. — Banno
Far more reasonable than what you usually say. If they can dream, they can imagine and recall scenes. — Olivier5
off-line thoughts [dreams] don't (whereas at least some of the on-line ones do) have to be "about" the ongoing scenery and the organism's path through it. On the other hand, nothing is to stop them from replicating (if only partially and incoherently) previous on-line thoughts of that kind. The question is whether this, if it is roughly what happens, implicates mental images, as we tend to assume it does... — bongo fury
Sounds suspiciously like a zombie! — Marchesk
If I'm wrong, and the appropriately confused machine might still be unconscious, I need alerting towards features of my own conscious thoughts that I am leaving out of consideration. — bongo fury
But is it reasonable to expect that any animals without language ever "recall a scene to mind"?
— bongo fury
What would possess you to have such a doubt? — Isaac
how are brain shiver events about events — Harry Hindu
Thoughts are "about" things in that they are the brain so shivering its neurons as to adjust its readiness to act on those things. Conscious thoughts, in particular, adjust its readiness to select among symbols for pointing at those things. This kind of thought is thus (whether online or off) thought "in" symbols, and consequently prone to making us think (mistakenly, though often harmlessly) that the symbols are in our heads. — bongo fury
the basic idea that episodic memory is reconstructed rather than recalled seems uncontroversial. — Banno
Or, as I say, persuade me otherwise, by better describing a typical occasion on which an animal recalls a scene to mind. — bongo fury
Start with an ape? In what situation might it have the brain shivers that you would describe as having a mental image and I would describe as readying to select among pictures? — bongo fury
What is corporate memory? — bongo fury
But isn't our brain in our heads? Your brain shivers are meaningless. Where are the scribbles you are reading now - in your head, in your brain, on the screen? Where is the scribbles' meaning - in your head, in your brain or on the screen?Thoughts are "about" things in that they are the brain so shivering its neurons as to adjust its readiness to act on those things. Conscious thoughts, in particular, adjust its readiness to select among symbols for pointing at those things. This kind of thought is thus (whether online or off) thought "in" symbols, and consequently prone to making us think (mistakenly, though often harmlessly) that the symbols are in our heads. — bongo fury
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.