metaphysics can't say anything, can't tell us anything we could actually make use of. — Banno
I have a feeling this will end badly. — Banno
Theoretical mathematical physics is Pythagorean-Platonic, — magritte
Philosophy is not so much about the how. If it were, it would be a science. What does that leave? It leaves the what and the why. A philosopher of physics is going to be interested in what physicists are thinking and why they're thinking it, and mainly in terms of the history of the thinking that has led to the moment. Probably they will document the axioms in use by the thinkers under consideration. Then perhaps to document their presuppositions, this latter much the more difficult because presuppositions, being presupposed, are usually not apparent. — tim wood
philosophy in its highest sense, which I take to mean knowledge of man, his peculiar character and the nature of his life, I would welcome it. — Todd Martin
If physicists understood the underlying metaphysics of modern philosophy — magritte
At the moment, as often happens, we're off on a discussion without having any idea what the discussion is actually about. — tim wood
There are theoretical physicists (hand waving) and mathematical physicists (mathematicians working in physics). — jgill
Sorry, I just dropped the other shoe in answer to the OP. If physicists understood the underlying metaphysics of modern philosophy they would raise exactly this argument. — magritte
Even speculative physics of other possible physical worlds is intended to be fully mathematical as soon as the needed maths are invented. Without mathematics what physics is there?There are theoretical physicists (hand waving) and mathematical physicists (mathematicians working in physics). — jgill
Exactly. Unfortunately, Galileo had to be more occupied with the speculative science of motion and change than with philosophy. Proposing a heretical philosophical alternative was clearly not his intention.Galileo was very much influenced by the Platonic revival — Wayfarer
I imagine that Kant would have agreed with that. But isn't open, inductive scientific knowledge very different in kind from deductive knowledge deduced from closed, purely logical systems?no knowledge derived from induction - just another name for science - could refute deduced knowledge — TheMadFool
Is it really possible to say anything whatsoever in any language that is not predicated on at least implied metaphysics?The underlying metaphysics of modern philosophy? Really? There is such a thing? — SophistiCat
is an imagined but logically coherentmetaphysical reality — god must be atheist
is an imagined but logically coherent
hypothesized philosophical world for the purpose of generating deductive consequences. — magritte
So, in saying anything, you have already committed yourself to some metaphysical world, — magritte
I would guess that most of our discussions at TPF are disagreements about metaphysical beliefs. — magritte
So, in saying anything, you have already committed yourself to some metaphysical world, or more likely a number of inconsistent worlds of your own. — magritte
Even speculative physics of other possible physical worlds is intended to be fully mathematical as soon as the needed maths are invented. — magritte
Is it really possible to say anything whatsoever in any language that is not predicated on at least implied metaphysics? — magritte
To speculate what if comes naturally to people. Imagined scenarios just convincing enough to elicit reflection and to enable change of conception or belief by the listeners go back at least to the earliest myths of mankind. Thought experiments need not be rational, just being conceivable is enough. For example, think of Pegasus or Icarus flying in the sky. Or the Wright brothers. Philosophers adopted this and other techniques to convey difficult abstract notions and theoretical and scientists followed suit naturally.We see more and more that science, mainly physics, has strayed into the realm of philosophy and though experiments. ... Do you believe science has become no longer the study of the world as it is, but as it may be? or do you see science as simply the persuit of knowledge no matter the form? — CallMeDirac
I don't know if you play or watch sports or games. Each one of these has its own logic and language. I'm a prisoners of COVID but I'm allowed to watch movies on the internet, and yes, each movie is its own imagined world. I'm not the romantic hero making love nor the spy who is impervious to the perils of the world, but for a short time I live in their world, their world is somewhat real to me, I speak their language, and use their improbable logic. Does music have any meaning to you? If yes, what is it?cite in normal language what inconsistent worlds i contain within that I am committed to? — god must be atheist
Sorry, those are mathematical inventions. But string theories are still incomplete, I believe, for lack of more advanced maths. Newton invented fluxions to formulate his mechanics.multiverses in cosmology or the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, then it's the other way around: mathematics is there from the start — SophistiCat
Well yes. It is usually cranked up to higher standards. But I'm not the inventor. Nelson Goodman did some brilliant and highly rigorous work along these lines. His work is sadly neglected.Identifying metaphysics with just any conceptualization is selling it a little cheap, don't you think? — SophistiCat
There are theoretical physicists (hand waving) and mathematical physicists (mathematicians working in physics). — jgill
To be fair, I don't think that these disciplines are very distinct — SophistiCat
There are theoretical physicists (hand waving) and mathematical physicists (mathematicians working in physics). — jgill
Even speculative physics of other possible physical worlds is intended to be fully mathematical as soon as the needed maths are invented. Without mathematics what physics is there? — magritte
I don't know if you play or watch sports or games. Each one of these has its own logic and language. I'm a prisoners of COVID but I'm allowed to watch movies on the internet, and yes, each movie is its own imagined world. I'm not the romantic hero making love nor the spy who is impervious to the perils of the world, but for a short time I live in their world, their world is somewhat real to me, I speak their language, and use their improbable logic. Does music have any meaning to you? If yes, what is it? — magritte
Do you mean experimental physicists or perhaps engineers? — magritte
Yes. The Europeans may have been less committed to the doctrine of Materialism, and more familiar with philosophical Metaphysics. Around the beginning of the 20th century, the United States was changing the focus of higher education, from Philosophy (wisdom) -- as in Phd -- to Pragmatism (practical applications). Apparently, some of the pioneers of Quantum Theory retained some of their philosophical training, even as they discovered that the foundations of the material world are not composed of Physical Matter, in the traditional sense, but something more like Metaphysical Mathematics. Hence, fair game for philosophers. :smile:Many of the pioneers of quantum mechanics were Europeans and deeply philosophical in outlook — Wayfarer
Nope, that would be fun but the metaphysics isn't all mine.your definition of metaphysics is individual, and its name stands for anything imaginary, conceptual, or fictional — god must be atheist
:up: You're talking to a woke fan. I check the flow of high and low global winds and pollution each morning.dynamics in the complex plane - force (vector) fields that predict the movements of particles — jgill
We see more and more that science, mainly physics, has strayed into the realm of philosophy and though experiments. Seeing this what is your opinion on the subject? Do you believe science has become no longer the study of the world as it is, but as it may be? or do you see science as simply the persuit of knowledge no matter the form? — CallMeDirac
I imagine that Kant would have agreed with that. But isn't open, inductive scientific knowledge very different in kind from deductive knowledge deduced from closed, purely logical systems? — magritte
This open question reminds me of Quantum Theory. It began as a reductive search for the philosophical Atom. But, at this moment, it ends with ellipsis . . . . . . .You want a scientific understanding of fear and shame, but one that is not reductionist...? — Banno
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