Occult Mysticism and Explicit Science are two different perspectives on the same world. Holistic Mystics tend to view the world metaphorically (poetically) as a system of unanalyzed concepts (symbols, feelings), taken at face value, without getting into the details. But Analytical Scientists are just the opposite : they want to delve into details, in order to dispel the mysteries, and to uncover the unknowns.I have probably chosen to think away from the 'mystical' because I have done academic studies in psychology and mental health care. But I have read a lot of esoteric philosophy at times as well. — Jack Cummins
As I understand it, science is to democracy what religion is to autocracy. The miracle of democracy is group thinking. When we question what is right and what is wrong, and share our different points of view, our understanding is much greater than when we do not discuss right and wrong. — Athena
Is "real" confined to what is observable, or does it include things, like the above mentioned, which have an observable effect in the world, but are not observable themselves? — Metaphysician Undercover
Ah ok. I suppose, like symbols, concepts/intentions/ideas/values - once expressed, will also become real. — 8livesleft
Now, since this unobservable, unmeasurable, aspect of... (reality?) is causal, as evidenced by the
observable and measurable existence of artificial things, ought we not assign "real" to these unobservable things? — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, it's called "deliberative democracy". It is a tough read though. Personally, I think that is important. We should challenge ourselves. Sometimes even with opposing viewpoints. :) — Pantagruel
Yes, I am definitely interested in listening to others, with critical but not an attacking stance. In that respect, I wait and see what happens next in the enfoldment of ideas. Really, I try to keep as an open mind as possible and, perhaps, my open mindedness will be be my downfall, but I hope that it will be something more, in terms of creativity and synthesis amidst the deluge of broken down philosophies in an increasingly chaotic world. — Jack Cummins
So you find it difficult to read books which are opposing views to your own. To some extent, I think that we gravitate to these but sometimes I really enjoy reading opposing views. Yes, it is a good question how our bodies react to the books we read. Unless I am really immersed I usually have to get up and have a walk around every so often while I am reading.
You ask whether we are living in a more in your face culture, which is likely to become violent. Obviously everywhere is different but I think that I have noticed a bit of an improvement since the pandemic. In places where I go, like the cafes where I go to read, people seem more civil and this may be because all the lockdowns etc. have shaken up the day to day reality, often taken for granted. — Jack Cummins
I do think that we are inclined to act like we are the end of history. I think that it is a problem and leads us to lack responsibility towards future generations and the environment. — Jack Cummins
I most certainly don't find maths would help my thinking. What I find helps most is lying on my bed for a couple of hours, and listening to a couple of albums, ranging from alternative rock etc to dance music. — Jack Cummins
So many have been thrown into complete poverty and having to go to food banks and mental health problems have escalated, with the suicide rate rising, due to social restrictions. — Jack Cummins
I am imagining that Christmas is going to be the biggest disaster of the year for England because the rules are going to be relaxed so much for 5 days, — Jack Cummins
I have just seen in the news that many people working in healthcare are refusing to have the vaccine. — Jack Cummins
I only recently became aware of Satler's site, espousing -- among other things -- "Both/And Logic". He seems to follow Ken Wilbur, and his Integral Theory philosophy. Although I read some of Wilbur's books, many years ago, my own BothAnd Principle developed directly from the Holistic implications of the Enformationism Thesis.I just looked at your links now and liked the idea by Rolf Satler, that, 'Buddhist logic is liberating because it transcends not only the restrictive either/ or of our common way of thinking, but even the both/and of the much more inclusive and healing both/and logic.' — Jack Cummins
In my opinion, unless verified/proven, it will remain unverified or unproven. — 8livesleft
Therefore, any object/phenomenon/concept can only be proven to be real or true based on the scientific method. — 8livesleft
Now, since this unobservable, unmeasurable, aspect of... (reality?) is causal, as evidenced by the
observable and measurable existence of artificial things, ought we not assign "real" to these unobservable things? — Metaphysician Undercover
So you agree that what it means to be real, or to be true, remains unverified and unproven. — Metaphysician Undercover
How could the scientific method prove anything to be real or true, when what it means to be real or true remains unproven? — Metaphysician Undercover
Is there one which is the ultimate in terms of establishing truth? — Jack Cummins
When Wilbur talks like a poetic mystic, he loses me. I'm more of a mundane Pragmatist than a sublime Mystic. Nevertheless, some of the implications of the Enformationism thesis get pretty close to New Age notions of spirituality. But then, I try to keep my worldview grounded in objective Science, because mystical balloons that are not moored, tend to drift away into the ether, where fictions can feel good subjectively, but cannot be proven true factually. I try to make sense of both Ideality and Reality -- as aspects of one world. I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out. :smile:'Within the deep silence of the great unborn, Spirit whispers a sublime secret, an otherwise hidden truth of one's very essence: You, in this and every moment, abide as Spirit itself, an immutable radiance beyond the mortal suffering of time and experience.' — Jack Cummins
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