• Brett
    3k
    For all those avowed atheists out there; if God and the beliefs in God’s existence and actions have no validity, no claim to truth, then what truth have you replaced them with?
  • Outlander
    2.2k
    While the premise is admirable, the answer is pretty simple. The truths and/or morals we create and appreciate ourselves. Or perhaps even the inherent biological "compass" we have as to what is good, pleasurable, and well as opposed to what is bad, painful, and terrible as we all are capable of experiencing.
  • Brett
    3k


    The truths and/or morals we create and appreciate ourselves.Outlander

    What would you call these truths? The evolution of morals I appreciate. But am I right that you regard the truths as those things that are inherent, like “good”, pleasurable, bad, even terrible. And is this truth down to what we experience?

    Edit: because wouldn’t a truth have to be applicable to everyone and understood?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    For all those avowed atheists out there; if God and the beliefs in God’s existence and actions have no validity, no claim to truth, then what truth have you replaced them with?Brett

    What is atheist? What is God? What are beliefs? What is existence? What is validity? What is truth?

    Admittedly, given certain contexts for these words, the world's business can get done, usually - sometimes not. But without anchoring these words somehow some way, where on the currents of discussion do you imagine you will drift to? Do you even know?
  • Brett
    3k


    I’m assuming your’re an atheist. .
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    On what basis? You don't even know what your own words mean. - Keeping in mind 1) you can assume what you like, and at the same time 2) the old saw about assuming..
  • Brett
    3k


    Well are you or aren’t you?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    For all those avowed atheists out there; if God and the beliefs in God’s existence and actions have no validity, no claim to truth, then what truth have you replaced them with?Brett

    Why would one have to replace anything?
    Why would it be necessary to replace something that you never had?
  • Brett
    3k


    Over time more and more people have come to believe and insist that God does not exist. Some people have grown up with idea of God’s existence then repudiated, for whatever reasons, that possibility. With that denial goes all previously accepted ideas of truth about the universe, themselves, morality and life and death, among many other beliefs.

    It’s hardly likely, though maybe possible, for those people to then exist in a vacuum. So what instead have they filled that vacuum with?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    Over time more and more people have come to believe and insist that God does not exist. Some people have grown up with idea of God’s existence then repudiated, for whatever reasons, that possibility.Brett

    So you mean morals and beliefs, not truths.

    It’s hardly likely, though maybe possible, for those people to then exist in a vacuum. So what instead have they filled that vacuum with?Brett

    If they have stopped believing then whatever convinced them that they were wrong would be filling the space.
  • Brett
    3k


    So you mean morals and beliefs, not truths.Sir2u

    No, I mean truths.

    If they have stopped believing then whatever convinced them that they were wrong would be filling the space.Sir2u

    Then what is that?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    Unanswerable because I do not understand the terms. And I am mostly sure that while you may think you do, you don't. But I invite you to assign clear meaning to them, then maybe at least we will have a base from which to communicate.

    E.g., if I said yes, or I said no, would you then know anything about what I thought? How would you? If you want to ask an intelligible question, make it intelligible.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    With that denial goes all previously accepted ideas of truthBrett
    Speak for yourself! And while you're at it, what is it you imagine truth to be? Really an astonishing number of people would like to know and are waiting.
  • Brett
    3k


    Unanswerable because I do not understand the terms.tim wood

    I shouldn’t have to do this but if it makes it easier then fine.

    “ Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

    This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism.” https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/
  • Brett
    3k


    And while you're at it, what is it you imagine truth to be?tim wood

    Well for those who believe in God then God is the truth. And you help reinforce my point. What is this truth that has replaced the truth of God?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    No, I mean truths.

    If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God,
    Brett

    So the preposition that god exists is true, not a belief. Does that mean that one should not believe the truth?

    Then what is that?Brett

    Would that not be different for the individuals the stop believing.

    But you have failed to take into account that many people that are atheists never believed in any god, would that mean that they never had any truths?
  • Brett
    3k


    So the preposition that god exists is true, not a belief.Sir2u

    Yes, for believers God is a fact.

    Does that mean that one should not believe the truth?Sir2u

    I don’t see why they would do that. Maybe I’ve misunderstood.
  • Brett
    3k


    But you have failed to take into account that many people that are atheists never believed in any god, would that mean that they never had any truths?Sir2u

    I don’t know how they would have come to that conclusion. Would that belief be from birth?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    Yes, for believers God is a fact.Brett

    So it is a belief. Not all beliefs are truth. A god, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Yeti, Atlantis, easy money are some of the many things people believe to be true. How many of them would you consider to be facts. Based on the proof available for each of them I would guess that they all have the same chance to be so.

    I don’t know how they would have come to that conclusion. Would that belief be from birth?Brett

    There are people that are never given religious education, that would mean that they never had what you call truth. Belief in god is not something that comes at birth, it is drummed into the young as they grow up. So why would anyone need to come to a conclusion, you believe what you are taught to believe until something changes the way you think.
  • Brett
    3k


    So it is a belief. Not all beliefs are truth.Sir2u

    I can’t see why someone would believe in something if they didn’t think it was the truth. You may not believe it’s the truth but that’s irrelevant to what they think.

    How many of them would you consider to be facts.Sir2u

    But we’re not talking about facts.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    You didn't have to. I understand what "atheism" means, And in terms of well-defined ideas or versions of god, and between people who well-understand each other as sharing exactly those ideas, the question of the fact of belief or not can be meaningful. But you and I almost certainly do not share the same understandings, thus your question becomes meaningless.

    The question of theism or atheism is referred to a something. What exactly do you say that something is? Not what it is called, but rather what it is. Likely I can answer your question in terms of what you say - if you're reasonably clear and coherent.

    But I'll give a hint or two. No, I do not believe - did we settle what a belief is, or what it means to believe? - in the God of the Christian Old Testament. No, I do not believe that any even half-way intelligent half-way educated person can be an atheist. Depending on just what is meant by "atheist."
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    But we’re not talking about facts.Brett

    Yes you are.

    For all those avowed atheists out there; if God and the beliefs in God’s existence and actions have no validity, no claim to truth, then what truth have you replaced them with?Brett

    Information that is valid, or truthful is called a fact.
  • Brett
    3k


    There are people that are never given religious education, that would mean that they never had what you call truth.Sir2u

    Yes you’re right they would not know of those truths about God.

    But you have failed to take into account that many people that are atheists never believed in any god, would that mean that they never had any truths?Sir2u

    I don’t know how they would have come to that conclusion. Would that belief be from birth?Brett

    This was in response to your post about how many people that are atheists never believed in God. If they were raised from being very young without any knowledge of God that would not make them atheists, it would just make them ignorant of the idea of God.
  • Brett
    3k


    What is atheist?

    Do you even know?
    tim wood

    No, I do not believe that any even half-way intelligent half-way educated person can be an atheist. Depending on just what is meant by "atheist."tim wood

    Do you even read my posts? Why are you still saying “depending on just what is meant by ‘atheist’”.

    And if you’re not an atheist then the OP is not addressed to you.
  • Jmd123
    1
    Hi, I’m new here. This is a very personal subject to me. I was an atheist from 10 years old until 30 years old. I believed in science, chaos theory, and the meaningless of existence. I believed in morality as innate and intrinsic. Ultimately, this belief led to the loss of my own moral compass and a descent into hell. I now could be classified as the most Nihilistic Christian you will have the opportunity to meet, but I believe in God and I believe in the devil. It’s been 8 years of battle, but I credit God with giving me my life back.
  • Brett
    3k


    I was an atheist from 10 years oldJmd123

    How did this come about at age 10?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    This was in response to your post about how many people that are atheists never believed in God. If they were raised from being very young without any knowledge of God that would not make them atheists, it would just make them ignorant of the idea of God.Brett

    Atheist - Someone who does not believe in the existence of a god.
    Theist - Someone who believes in the existence of a god.

    If you have not been taught to believe in gods, it does not mean that you are ignorant of other people believing in their existence.
    You can still know about the concept of gods even if you have not been trained to believe int hem.

    But this discussion is getting boring without having the proper data necessary to continue. You said the the truths about god need to be replaced by something, so exactly which truths are you talking about? Maybe this will help to decide what could possibly replace them.
  • Brett
    3k


    But this discussion is getting boring without having the proper data necessary to continue. You said the the truths about god need to be replaced by something, so exactly which truths are you talking about? Maybe this will help to decide what could possibly replace them.Sir2u

    Data? What is proper data?

    You said the the truths about god need to be replaced by something,Sir2u

    That’s not what I said. Reread my first post.
  • Brett
    3k


    If you have not been taught to believe in gods, it does not mean that you are ignorant of other people believing in their existence.Sir2u

    True, but it doesn’t make you an atheist.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    What is god? That's the question. Make that clear so that everyone else can have a least some idea of what you're talking about..
  • Brett
    3k


    What is god? That's the question.tim wood

    “ Most theists agree that God is (in Ramanuja's words) the “supreme self” or person—omniscient, omnipotent, and all good. But classical Christian theists have also ascribed four “metaphysical attributes” to God—simplicity, timelessness, immutability, and impassibility. The doctrine of simplicity states that each of God's real or intrinsic properties is identical with his other real or intrinsic properties, and with his being or nature. God's knowledge is identical with his power, for example, and both are identical with his being. Just as “Thomas Jefferson” and “the third president of the United States” have different meanings but refer to the same person, so “the knowledge of God” and “the power of God,” although differing in meaning, refer to the same reality, namely, the infinitely perfect divine life or activity.

    Many classical western theists have also thought that God is timeless—altogether outside of time. God resembles abstract objects like numbers or propositions in having no temporal location or extension. God isn't an abstract object, of course, but an infinitely perfect life or activity. One shouldn't think of this life and activity as being in time, however—not even as everlasting. Thus God timelessly knows and wills that conscious life will emerge on earth after certain events and before others. But while temporality is a property of what God knows and wills, it isn't a property of God's act of knowledge or will. The objects of God's knowledge and act of will are in time but God himself and his activity are not.

    God is also believed to be immutable. Something is immutable if its real properties can't change. Immutability follows from God's simplicity. An object undergoes real change when it loses one real property and/or acquires another. Real change thus entails that some of the object's real properties aren't identical. (If P, Q, and R are real properties, and x retains P through a change but loses Q and acquires R, then P, Q, and R are different properties.) So if God is simple, he can't undergo real change. God's immutability also follows from his timelessness since change entails a temporal transition from one state to another.

    Finally, classical western theists have thought that God is impassible. God creates, sustains, and governs the world. It depends on him both for its being and for its qualities. But nothing acts on God or causally affects him. While the world is affected by God, God is not affected by it.” https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts-god/
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.