What are the pros and cons of staying or leaving? Is there any real benefit either way - this better than that? It seems to me the Scots have a greater and stronger identity and image than just about everyone else on the planet. What more is there to get?

It seems to me the Scots have a greater and stronger identity and image than just about everyone else on the planet. What more is there to get? — tim wood

The Scottish have been dominated by Westminster for about a thousand years. And now they have a Tory twat insulting them and being condescending at every turn.

I’m not exercised over the issue myself, but I couldn’t turn to a Scot and advise them to put up with this for any longer.

Well the Scots are being dragged out of the EU against their will. The irony is that during the first independence referendum the UK government campaigned on a ticket of guaranteeing EU membership to the Scottish if they voted no to independence. Against the claim that they would find themselves out of the EU if they voted for independence.There is also a gapping democratic deficit in being ruled from Westminster.

Well the Scots are being dragged out of the EU against their will. — Punshhh

Can the Scots legally control their own borders? (I recognize my question may have built-in ignorance.)

It all turns on whether the Scots think that being part of the EU will be of greater benefit than being part of the UK.

I wish the Scots would do so, but won’t bet on it. Economically, it could work out for them fine IF they are given a quick EU accession path and I believe that the 27 would be willing and even eager to offer a quick accession to an independent Scotland. But the power of habit...

Can the Scots legally control their own borders? (I recognize my question may have built-in ignorance.)

I don’t know the legal position, but I expect they can, they do have a parliament. They did close the border with England a few weeks ago during a COVID lockdown.

It all turns on whether the Scots think that being part of the EU will be of greater benefit than being part of the UK.

This is a big topic, it would probably divide into those questions about the politics and those about the economic future of the country.

Politically there is a democratic deficit north of the border, in which Scotland has little say in the decisions and governance of her people, delivered by an out of date southern England facing political elite. An elite steeped in the class system which has ruled over most of the population of The UK like privileged barons for centuries. Particularly brutal in reference to Scotland.

Economically, the English often repeat the claim that Scotland couldn’t stand on its own feet economically and that England support them financially. Some use this as a reason the patronise the Scottish as somehow inferior and that they should get real and stop grumbling. Then there is the economic effects of Scotland rejoining the EU. This also has a political dimension.

Can the Scots legally control their own borders? (I recognize my question may have built-in ignorance.) — tim wood

More like built-in contempt for the Scots. Because today they don't have any border to England as they are part of the UK.

However,

Scotland has been an independent country for a long time in history. It has institutions and infrastructure that are at par with others West European countries. Needless to say that they (the Scotts) are totally capable of handling every area of independence and perfectly capable of handling an independent Scotland as a sovereign state. And likely they would get into the EU quite easily after already having been there. The only nut to crack would be their southern neighbor, which wouldn't like it. The border with Ireland and Northern Ireland gives people a hint of the future problems if Scotland opts for independence.

Interesting to see how the English handle Scottish independence movement now. Or then the Scottish Independence Party fucks up it again. Because the UK government is smart enough not to be a bully and send Challenger tanks to roam the streets of Edinburgh. I would think that London's hope is just to drag it's feet, not to give coverage to the topic and hope the economy recovers so much that people are OK with their present union.

No independence for them in 2014:


Or then things go to the worse and you won't have the issue solved with polite political dialogue and peaceful elections, but with far dismal outcomes, which actually is the norm for humanity.

Interesting to see what happens to Northern Ireland also.

Yes, a picture from a Hollywood blockbuster film with an American actor with ties to Australia obviously makes the point. At least the film was filmed PARTLY in Scotland. :roll:

Because today they don't have any border to England — ssu

They did close the border with England a few weeks ago during a COVID lockdown. — Punshhh

Hmm.

The Scots didn’t put border posts on the roads which connect Scotland to England. It was advice announced by the Scottish government. There might have been a few police patrols keeping an eye on things though. A similar thing happened with Wales a month ago.

In a similar way here the Capital region and Southern Finland was closed for a while from the rest of Finland. The Police and also the Armed Forces were deployed to oversee any traffic. Doesn't mean that there's a border between Southern Finland and the rest of Finland.

Doesn't mean that there's a border between Southern Finland and the rest of Finland. — ssu

Well, we may differ in our understanding of "border." But I do not for a moment suppose there is anything about borders you do not already know and better than I, though we may categorize our notions differently. Having opened this door, I don't see any reason to go through it. You?


.

We could discuss this on a more general level on the status of the autonomy of Scotland versus a sovereign state.

The Scottish Parliament can decide on matters as:

agriculture, forestry and fisheries
education and training
environment
health and social services
housing
law and order
local government
sport and the arts
tourism and economic development
many aspects of transport

While the UK Parliament is responsible for matters like:

benefits and social security
immigration
defence
foreign policy
employment
broadcasting
trade and industry
nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity
consumer rights
data protection
the Constitution

And looking at the list, while "health and social services" and also "law and order" are under Scottish Paliament rule, I would assume that the Scottish Parliament / Scottish leadership can decide on issues concerning a pandemic. Hence the actions of Nicola Sturgeon seem from my point of view be totally in line with Scottish autonomy.

I won't put more than a toe in that water. It's not-so-easy to even determine if Scotland is, or is not, a country. Yes, but, and No, but, both seem the answer. With benefits and social security and energy on the UK side, though, it suggests that a complete separation won't be either easy or a slam-dunk for anyone. It all seems as complicated as the Constitution is obscure - which is also on the UK side.

If you're Scots, how would you vote? Do I presume correctly that Scots are divided on independence?

Perfectly all right to keep it simple on this topic - that's about all I can handle.

Now that the effects of Brexit will start being felt, the Union of the UK is going to fracture. It may be possible for a Brexit Britain to weather this storm and preserve the Union, but it would be a harder fight than Brexit and the current government in Westminster has neither the talent, nor the inclination to fight to keep it together. Indeed the government is going in the other direction towards a more centralised sovereignty in Downing Street, with talk of stripping away the powers of devolution handed out to the regions over the last generation, to bring them to heel.

Many Scots today simply say it’s to late, the government would have had to put their promises into action from the day following the independence referendum in 2014 to have a hope. But nothing happened, now they have broken their biggest promise, to guarantee EU membership for the Scottish people.

Watch this space.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/02/uk/2020-hurt-the-uk-2021-could-kill-it-intl-gbr/index.html

I’m not a Scot, although I was born there. The poling is at about 60/40 in favour of independence at the moment. Johnson is the poster boy of the independence movement and he is set to be in post for the next 4 years.

I’m not a Scot, although I was born there. — Punshhh

This a side question, and not intended to be personal: I would think that being born in a place makes one usually a citizen of that place. I realize it's not in every case that simple, but pretty close it the US.... Do the Scots have rules about such things preventing automatic citizenship at birth?

What I mean is I am of English heritage, but was born in Scotland while my parents were living there for only a few years, before moving back to England. While in the UK Scotland doesn’t have separate citizenship for Scots, everyone is classed as a British citizen. If Scotland becomes independent, I doubt I would have any problems in getting a Scottish passport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHA1ufmLZQY

Looks like the debate has started.

Can Johnson say no?
If so, is it sustainable?

The SNP has boobed. The election was effectively a 2nd referendum. And the combined vote shares were 51/49 in favour of the Unionist parties. How is a 2nd ref now justified? I suspect the Sturgeon/Salmond infighting has turned just enough people off to lose the nationalist majority. Maybe voters suspect the SNP aren't quite the knights in shining armour they seemed..

The SNP has boobed. The election was effectively a 2nd referendum. And the combined vote shares were 51/49 in favour of the Unionist parties. How is a 2nd ref now justified? I suspect the Sturgeon/Salmond infighting has turned just enough people off to lose the nationalist majority. Maybe voters suspect the SNP aren't quite the knights in shining armour they seemed.. — Tim3003

What is your logic here? SNP were 1 seat away from a majority. The fact that the whole SNP campaign revolved around a 2nd referendum and that the green party are also pushing for the indy ref clearly shows that the majority want it to happen. And a coalition between SNP and greens will be an implementation of that. Scotland voted to stay in the EU almost unanimously. So I don't see how it wouldn't be justified now that the conditions have changed.

I think that the rest of the UK should get to vote on the matter as well. I'm British so should have a say in whether or not my country breaks up into two.

I'm Scottish (living in France) and I respectfully disagree. :joke:

Anyway, it's not your country that would break up, but the union.

Would you be OK if the English, Welsh, and Northern Irish voted to leave the United Kingdom and form their own country? Does that differ from them voting to expel Scotland from the United Kingdom? And if in either case they voted not to, does that differ from them voting against Scottish independence?

I think that the rest of the UK should get to vote on the matter as well. I'm British so should have a say in whether or not my country breaks up into two. — Michael

So thought many who considered themselves being Yugoslavians...

Ultimately, the people of Scotland are the only people who should be allowed to determine their independence. Why should it be in the hands of others?

Your logic implies that the people in non-uk EU countries should've had a vote to determine brexit.