Digital information is conveyed in the abstract language of binary numbers that have the potential to encode any meaning. — Gnomon
Therefore, in order to be meaningful to non-computers, that general (one size fits all) language must be translated (inverted) back into a single human language with a narrowly-defined (specified) range of meanings for each word. — Gnomon
It's not just me. See the link to Universal Language in the previous post. I'm making a broad general statement, that you may be interpreting in a narrow sense. I'm merely repeating the opinions of serious scientists -- Wheeler, Tegmark, Fredkin, Lloyd, etc -- that the physical reality of our universe may be viewed as our sensory interpretation of abstract mathematical Information --- see Interface Reality below.Digital information is conveyed in the abstract language of binary numbers that have the potential to encode any meaning. — Gnomon
But do they? Or, do you really believe this? — Metaphysician Undercover
Shannon's "information theory" does not deal with "information" at all, as we commonly use the word. If we do not recognize this, and the ambiguity which arises, between the common use, and the use within the theory, we might inadvertently equivocate and think that the theory deals with "information" as what is referred to when we commonly use the word to refer to what is inherent within a message. — Metaphysician Undercover
This can be said about any experience - visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory or tactile. We use past experience, knowledge, and rules, to eliminate the uncertainty of what we experience.It describes how what is foundational, or basic to communication is uncertainty. — Metaphysician Undercover
This ambiguity of the word information needs to be emphasized in trying to grasp what Shannon's theory says and what it does not say. Shannon was talking about transmission of data over a neutral but imperfect channel not what that data means to a sender or to a receiver. — magritte
In a more complicated case perhaps the channel or method of transmission is not neutral. In the verbal transmission of rumors some content is lost, embellished, and added as the content is passed from person to person. Here, content is not the letters, words, or sentences but a human intelligible meaning with both cognitive and emotional elements. — magritte
Interpretting words and behaviors entails discovering the rules (beliefs) that the sender used to encode the message. Only by discovering the rule (belief) can you then decode the message. — Harry Hindu
I assume that by "excluded", you are referring to "discarding, all that meaning which falls in between, as neither 0 nor 1". But that's not how I understand the digital compression process. Instead, it's similar to Quantum Superposition, in that all values between 0 and 1 are possible, but not actual, until the superposition is "collapsed" by a measurement. The original Intention is still in-there, but un-knowable until the meaning is "measured" by a mind that "resonates" with the intent. In other words, the receiver must already know something about the significance of the communication.If that is your view, and belief, how do you account for all that meaning which is excluded as not meaningful, by that position, as I explained above? Do you believe that it is acceptable to exclude any meaning which cannot fit into the digital representation, as not meaningful? Isn't that contradictory? — Metaphysician Undercover
Perhaps he is referring to the rules of Syntax, which are conventional, and the rules of Semantics, which are mostly intuitive. :smile:Harry Hindu is speaking of this as a matter of following rules, but I don't see any evidence of any such rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
Right, that's why I said what "information" refers to in information theory is something completely different from what "information" refers to in much common usage. So for example, if we distinguish between symbols and what the symbols represent (meaning), in information theory the symbols are called information, but in common usage information usually refers to what is represented by the symbols, the meaning. — Metaphysician Undercover
Maybe "rule" isn't the most appropriate term. Does natural selection "select rules" by which some organism interprets the information it receives via its senses? Is "selecting rules" an adequate phrase to refer to how certain characteristics are favored by natural selection for the organism to be more in tune with their environment? What is selected is better interpretations of sensory information. These ways of interpreting sensory information are what become instincts, or habits.Harry Hindu is speaking of this as a matter of following rules, but I don't see any evidence of any such rules. And the idea of "rules" does not deliver us from the ambiguity. We generally understand "rules" to exist as an expression of symbols. But these rules would need to be interpreted for meaning. So we'd be stuck in a vicious circle here, of requiring rules to interpret rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
Habits are memorized rules, or rules that have been engrained in the genetic code thanks to natural selection.I really do not believe that there are any such rules, just habits, so I think we're on a different page here Harry. — Metaphysician Undercover
I assume that by "excluded", you are referring to "discarding, all that meaning which falls in between, as neither 0 nor 1". But that's not how I understand the digital compression process. Instead, it's similar to Quantum Superposition, in that all values between 0 and 1 are possible, but not actual, until the superposition is "collapsed" by a measurement. The original Intention is still in-there, but un-knowable until the meaning is "measured" by a mind that "resonates" with the intent. In other words, the receiver must already know something about the significance of the communication. — Gnomon
I'm not into all the technical details, but some Information theorists view the secret to compression as, not either/or, but as all-of-the-above. — Gnomon
Besides there is no actual Meaning transmitted in a Shannon communication --- only abstract mathematical symbols, that can be used to define conventional relationships, which the receiving mind interprets as Meaning. — Gnomon
Perhaps he is referring to the rules of Syntax, which are conventional, and the rules of Semantics, which are mostly intuitive. — Gnomon
How can you call them symbols if they don't already represent something? Meaning is inherent in symbols. — Harry Hindu
Maybe "rule" isn't the most appropriate term. Does natural selection "select rules" by which some organism interprets the information it receives via its senses? Is "selecting rules" an adequate phrase to refer to how certain characteristics are favored by natural selection for the organism to be more in tune with their environment? What is selected is better interpretations of sensory information. These ways of interpreting sensory information are what become instincts, or habits. — Harry Hindu
Habits are memorized rules, or rules that have been engrained in the genetic code thanks to natural selection. — Harry Hindu
Yes, but the digital system is just one facet of the whole system -- the Universe. Our world is a two-sided coin. You can't see both sides at the same time. But you can choose which side to look at. In the communication of Information, Shannon chose not to look at the intentional Meaning of its contents, but to focus on the Container, which is neutral toward Meaning. The point being, that the invisible side of the cosmic coin is still there, like the dark side of the moon. See image below. :smile:The point remains the same, even if you express it in this way. All that meaning between 1 and 0 cannot be expressed in the digital system. — Metaphysician Undercover
Quantum information that is in superposition is indeed "un-knowable" until a measurement is taken. The measurement is a Choice of what to look at. Quantum theorists have argued about the significance of a Delayed Choice experiment. But don't ask me to make sense of it in this context --- it's just an analogy. Superposition may be confusing, but not necessarily contradictory. :grin:Right, that's why all that meaning (information) ends up being contradictory and "un-knowable". — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes. But it's the Distinction-that-made-a-Difference in causing a Phase Change in history from the Industrial Age to the Information Age. By changing how we think of Information, he was able to gain power over it. For example, the Bit is a distinction -- a difference (1) that makes a difference (2). The first difference is physical (an empirical observation), and the latter difference is personal -- meaning (a theory or feeling). That's why some people feel that Shannon's indirect creation (Robots) are like Frankenstein's soulless monsters.That's why the Shannon use of "information" is distinct from most common usage. — Metaphysician Undercover
The rules of Syntax (structure) are partly objective, and can be applied to any language or culture. But the "rules" of Semantics (meaning) are partly subjective & personal, yet may also be embedded in Jung's Collective Consciousness, or in Freud's Unconscious, or Chomsky's Deep Structure. Don't take those metaphors literally. They merely indicate that part of what-we-know-intuitively, and the rules-of-behavior we follow, are inherited with the human body. Hence, such standards, while important, are not inherently formal or rational. :nerd:The point being that I don't see any evidence of rules of semantics, and the rules of syntax need to be interpreted. — Metaphysician Undercover
But the "rules" of Semantics (meaning) are partly subjective & personal, yet may also be embedded in Jung's Collective Consciousness, or in Freud's Unconscious, or Chomsky's Deep Structure. Don't take those metaphors literally. They merely indicate that part of what-we-know-intuitively, and the rules-of-behavior we follow, are inherited with the human body. Hence, such standards, while important, are not inherently formal or rational. :nerd: — Gnomon
semantic rules make communication possible. They are rules that people have agreed on to give meaning to certain symbols and words. — Gnomon
Since I am not an authority on the subject of Semantics and Syntax, I was referring you to some authorities that do see evidence of commonalities, if not formal "rules", in human communication. If you are really interested in the evidence, you can click on the links. But, it seems that you have something against the idea of natural logical structure in communication. And I'm not quite sure what that objection is. :smile:The appeal to authority is insufficient until you bring out the evidence presented by those authorities. — Metaphysician Undercover
Well, except for some picky-picky philosophers, most people don't have to establish formal rules before they communicate. Instead, most of us learn the rules informally at our mother's knee, and just by growing up in a particular culture, or may even inherit some mental structure biologically. That's what I referred to as "Intuition".I don't see that people agree on rules before communicating with each other. — Metaphysician Undercover
Since I am not an authority on the subject of Semantics and Syntax, I was referring you to some authorities that do see evidence of commonalities, if not formal "rules", in human communication. If you are really interested in the evidence, you can click on the links. But, it seems that you have something against the idea of natural logical structure in communication. And I'm not quite sure what that objection is. — Gnomon
Well, except for some picky-picky philosophers, most people don't have to establish formal rules before they communicate. — Gnomon
Instead, most of us learn the rules informally at our mother's knee, and just by growing up in a particular culture, or may even inherit some mental structure biologically. That's what I referred to as "Intuition". — Gnomon
I think I'm beginning to see your objection to the notion of "rules" in communication. Apparently you are thinking of imposed "explicit" formal rules, while I'm talking about innate "implicit" informal commonalities. As a rule (i.e. normally) humans are born with something like a mental template for language.I have nothing against "natural logical structure in communication". But we cannot conclude that natural logical structure implies rules, just because artificial, or formal logic consists of rules. In fact, that's what I see as the difference between formal logic, and natural logic, the former consists of rules, the latter does not. — Metaphysician Undercover
That is not what I was proposing. Sorry for the mis-communication. :smile:Then, very clearly, your proposal that people must agree on rules in order for communication to be possible, is false. — Metaphysician Undercover
OK. I'll try to avoid using the term "rules", since it seems to trigger your indignation. Instead, I'll use something like "norm". The human language instinct is not a "law of nature" or a "man-made rule", but it is common enough to view it as "the rule rather than the exception". :cool:I really do not see how you can portray learning how to talk as a matter of learning rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
I think I'm beginning to see your objection to the notion of "rules" in communication. Apparently you are thinking of imposed "explicit" formal rules, while I'm talking about innate "implicit" informal commonalities. As a rule (i.e. normally) humans are born with something like a mental template for language. — Gnomon
My position on inherent human behaviors (instincts) is basically that of cognitive psychologist Stephen Pinker in The Blank Slate. He calls it "the language instinct", which gives humans an advantage, over most animals, in social communication. Anyway, I doubt that our concepts of communication are very far apart. It's just another failure to "first define your terms". — Gnomon
OK. I'll try to avoid using the term "rules", since it seems to trigger your indignation. Instead, I'll use something like "norm". The human language instinct is not a "law of nature" or a "man-made rule", but it is common enough to view it as "the rule rather than the exception". :cool:
Rule : If something is the rule, it is the normal state of affairs. — Gnomon
Apparently, in your strict vocabulary of technical terms, that might be the case. Since I'm not a professional scientist, I tend to use such jargon more loosely. Besides, in psychology, formal "rules" or "laws" are hard to come by. Most behaviors that psychologists take-for-granted are more like rules-of-thumb than empirically-confirmed-natural-laws. That's why The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has to be regularly updated to weed-out definitions of disorders that turn-out to be too broad or too narrow or just plain wrong. :smile:Isn't a "rule" necessarily formal though? That's the point, to talk about Innate, informal commonalities, as if they are rules, appears like a mistake to me. — Metaphysician Undercover
The "language instinct" is a well-known effect, but its cause is a matter of debate. Stephen Pinker says that "A three-year-old toddler is "a grammatical genius"--master of most constructions, obeying adult rules of language." And he attributes those "rules" to a combination of Nature and Nurture. But he provides lots of observational evidence, so the mechanism behind the human talent for language is not exactly unknown. Some may claim it's a miracle, but Pinker thinks it's a Darwinian adaptation. :smile:That might be the case, if we both see this "instinct" as an unknown concerning its true nature, then we have commonality here. — Metaphysician Undercover
All I can say to that is, Pinker is the reigning expert on psycholinguistics, and he thinks he knows why humans act like they have a special talent for language, that other animals don't. But his theory is based on evolutionary assumptions, that some other linguists, and theologians, disagree with. Yet again, the science of Psychology is inherently Philosophical & Meta-Physical, hence not empirical, and will always be subject to debate. But Pinker's explanation is close-enough for me . . . for now. :cool:but we have no approach to the cause of that commonality. If we say that the person is following a rule, we create the illusion that we know why the person is acting in that particular way. — Metaphysician Undercover
Apparently, in your strict vocabulary of technical terms, that might be the case. Since I'm not a professional scientist, I tend to use such jargon more loosely. Besides, in psychology, formal "rules" or "laws" are hard to come by. Most behaviors that psychologists take-for-granted are more like rules-of-thumb than empirically-confirmed-natural-laws. That's why The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has to be regularly updated to weed-out definitions of disorders that turn-out to be too broad or too narrow or just plain wrong. :smile: — Gnomon
The "language instinct" is a well-known effect, but it's cause is a matter of debate. Stephen Pinker says that "A three-year-old toddler is "a grammatical genius"--master of most constructions, obeying adult rules of language." And he attributes those "rules" to a combination of Nature and Nurture. But he provides lots of observational evidence, so the mechanism behind the human talent for language is not exactly unknown. Some may claim it's a miracle, but Pinker thinks it's a Darwinian adaptation. — Gnomon
PS___Shannon's definition of passive carrier "Information" is on the reductive & empirical end of the Science spectrum. But my definition of active causal "EnFormAction" is more towards the holistic & philosophical end, along with Psychology and History. Does that lack of hard evidence invalidate the hypothesis that Enformation might be the driver of evolution --- including the Language Instinct? Maybe. What do you think? — Gnomon
I don't have a problem with that as-if usage of "rules". It's no worse than atheist scientists referring to observed regularities in nature (Laws) as-if they were imposed by a divine authority. When patterns in nature appear to be rule-governed or lawful, I attribute that predictable behavior of natural systems, not to top-down Design, but to bottom-up Programming. Human programs are intentionally teleological, but the final output is unknown until the computation is complete --- or the fat lady sings, whichever comes first. :wink:Don't you see a problem here? If psychologists are referring to "rules' which account for, or cause certain types of behaviour, and there is really no rules there, then what are they actually talking about? — Metaphysician Undercover
My interpretation of evolution as bottom-up design is compatible with human Free Will. :yum:If we dismiss this term "rule", and look at the fact that a human being is a free willing and free thinking human being, then we have a different perspective form which we can ask why is a person inclined to act in such a way as to create the appearance that one is following rules, when really there are no rules being followed. — Metaphysician Undercover
Perhaps you are thinking of the New Age interpretation of "Holism". But my usage is that of the guy who literally wrote the book. It's only "mystical" in the sense that Einstein called "spooky action at a distance". :nerd:I have difficulty with the "holistic" approach because in my mind it cannot adequately account for the appearance of intention and free choice. — Metaphysician Undercover
My interpretation of evolution as bottom-up design is compatible with human Free Will. — Gnomon
Natural Laws : Laws of Nature are to be distinguished both from Scientific Laws and from Natural Laws. Neither Natural Laws, as invoked in legal or ethical theories, nor Scientific Laws, which some researchers consider to be scientists’ attempts to state or approximate the Laws of Nature, . . . Some of these implications involve accidental truths, false existentials, the correspondence theory of truth, and the concept of free will. Perhaps the most important implication of each theory is whether the universe is a cosmic coincidence or driven by specific, eternal laws of nature. — Gnomon
Perhaps you are thinking of the New Age interpretation of "Holism". But my usage is that of the guy who literally wrote the book. It's only "mystical" in the sense that Einstein called "spooky action at a distance". :nerd: — Gnomon
That wasn't my classification, but a definition of "Law" as used in different contexts : Scientific Laws (observed regularities, with no inference of divine regulation), Laws of Nature (religious assertion of divine Lawgiver), and Natural Laws (a legal term, which doesn't take a stand either way on the provenance of the observed order in Nature).:cool:I don't understand this part. Are you making three classifications, scientific laws, laws of nature, and also natural laws. — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, "what is represented by these [so-called] laws"? Would you prefer to call them "accidental random patterns in Nature"? Einstein referred to them as "Reason", "order", "harmony", "structure", and "lawful", among other terms. :smile:But you can see, as I've argued, that I don't believe we're justified in even calling what is represented by these laws as "rules' or "laws" or anything like that. — Metaphysician Undercover
Again, you may be thinking of "Holism" in the New Age sense. Scientists prefer to use the term "Systems" in order to avoid any theological implications. If you think of Evolution as an ongoing Program of world-creation, then the final output is unknown (undetermined), even though the Programmer specified the parameters by which the Solution will be judged. Initial Conditions & Natural Laws are parameters, but the system uses statistical Randomness to instill novelty into the otherwise deterministic system. My essay on Intelligent Evolution is an attempt to introduce the notion of bottom-up creation of an unfathomably huge Uni-verse (one whole) from a minuscule mathematical Singularity. :nerd:I do not see how you can make bottom-up mechanisms consistent with holism. — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, "what is represented by these [so-called] laws"? Would you prefer to call them "accidental random patterns in Nature"? Einstein referred to them as "Reason", "order", "harmony", "structure", and "lawful", among other terms. :smile: — Gnomon
Again, you may be thinking of "Holism" in the New Age sense. Scientists prefer to use the term "Systems" in order to avoid any theological implications. If you think of Evolution as an ongoing Program of world-creation, then the final output is unknown (undetermined), even though the Programmer specified the parameters by which the Solution will be judged. Initial Conditions & Natural Laws are parameters, but the system uses statistical Randomness to instill novelty into the otherwise deterministic system. My essay on Intelligent Evolution is an attempt to introduce the notion of bottom-up creation of an unfathomably huge Uni-verse (one whole) from a minuscule mathematical Singularity. — Gnomon
Again, we butt heads over specific vs general terminology. In human societies, governors (kings, congressmen, parliamentarians) make the laws, and the governed people obey the laws. So, if you observe a pattern of obedience to a law, wouldn't you infer that the obeyers were somehow compelled to conform? The observed pattern of behavior can be described in terms of specific actions, or in terms of a governing principle : a Law.So it's clearly fallacious logic to proceed from the premise that natural things are describable by laws, to the conclusion that they are governed by laws. — Metaphysician Undercover
Apparently, you haven't looked at the links. The connection between Holism and bottom-up creation is much too complex for a forum post. Instead, I have dozens of essays that look at different aspects of the question --- from the perspective of a top-down Whole, and a bottom-up Holon. You seem to think Top-Down and Bottom-Up are mutually exclusive. But I think it's a question of perspective, point-of-view, frame-of-reference.As far as I can tell, you haven't defined "holism" yet so as to make it consistent with bottom-up creation. — Metaphysician Undercover
Again, we butt heads over specific vs general terminology. In human societies, governors (kings, congressmen, parliamentarians) make the laws, and the governed people obey the laws. So, if you observe a pattern of obedience to a law, wouldn't you infer that the obeyers were somehow compelled to conform? The observed pattern of behavior can be described in terms of specific actions, or in terms of a governing principle : a Law. — Gnomon
The relevant distinction is between a specific pattern, and the general cause of that pattern. For example, if most cars wait patiently at a red light, is that a random coincidence, or would you infer that there is some governing Law that they are obeying? If you watch long enough, you may see a car that does not stop at a red light, and then is pulled-over by a law-enforcement officer.
Some scientists refer to Natural Laws as merely "habits". The implication is that the predictable regularities of natural behaviors is characteristic of individual actors, not of any general imperative imposed from above. Is this your position? That makes sense from a Reductive (part) viewpoint, but not from a Holistic (system) perspective. So again, our different understanding reflects a preference for looking at Isolated Parts or Whole Systems --- or for Bottom-up Inductive Reasoning or Top-down Deductive Logic. Both approaches are reasonable, but applicable to different contexts. No need to butt heads . . . just define terms and contexts. — Gnomon
Apparently, you haven't looked at the links. The connection between Holism and bottom-up creation is much too complex for a forum post. Instead, I have dozens of essays that look at different aspects of the question --- from the perspective of a top-down Whole, and a bottom-up Holon. You seem to think Top-Down and Bottom-Up are mutually exclusive. But I think it's a question of perspective, point-of-view, frame-of-reference. — Gnomon
Natural Laws place limits upon freedom, but Randomness is free to experiment with various solutions to the question of Survival. — Gnomon
I see the distinction you are making. But the observation that some people voluntarily run red lights, does not diminish the punitive power of the law. That's exactly why we have Law-Enforcers, who can't rewrite "inaccurate" laws. The Exception proves the Rule. :joke:The human beings have free will to disobey the laws when they desire to, and often do, at risk of punishment. The inanimate objects continue to act as the law describes, without exception. If there is any exception, we do not punish the things, we look for inaccuracies in the law. See the difference? — Metaphysician Undercover
That's exactly why I have made an argument for FreeWill Within Determinism. Which is an update on old theological arguments against Determinism and Predestination of human Souls. Fortunately for us non-theologians, immortal souls are no longer necessary to escape Fate. :grin:So, the point I made, is that we cannot proceed logically from the observation that the behaviour of inanimate things can be described by laws, to the conclusion that these things are governed by laws, because of the difference I described above. Being governed by laws implies that the things governed can freely act otherwise. Being describable by laws of science implies that things cannot freely act otherwise. This is a fundamental difference and the incompatibility needs to be resolved. — Metaphysician Undercover
True. Most "holons" don't have any freedom from Top-Down causation. But the exceptional "holon" in my assertion is a "a self-conscious link" in the chain of Causation. Theologians attribute that significant distinction to a divine Soul. But, from a scientific perspective, Free Choice could emerge from evolution along with the exceptional Self Concept of primates. :cool:I don't see that the concept of a holon solves the issue of bottom-up causation. — Metaphysician Undercover
Again, with the literal picky-picky definitions. My comment was not a statement of natural fact, but an analogy with our common concept of Agency. Of course Randomness is not "really" a free agent, or a scientist. And the agent of Randomness is not a Soul, but the hypothetical Programmer, who metaphorically used a random number generator (algorithm) to produce a patternless distribution of forms, from which Natural Selection (another algorithm) can select those best fitting the Programmer's criteria for fitness. Again, these are not scientific statements, but poetic analogies, referring to questions that are beyond the reach of the Scientific Method, but not beyond philosophical imagination. :chin:This really doesn't makes sense. Randomness cannot experiment, all it can do is continue in a random fashion. You could assume an agent which experiments with randomness, but then you'd need to account for the existence of that agent. What is this agent, the soul? — Metaphysician Undercover
In my worldview, the Programmer had a question about FreeWill that could only be answered by actually allowing some degree of freedom. Even an omnipotent creator could not mandate moral behavior without permitting agents to choose. — Gnomon
All I can say to that is, Pinker is the reigning expert on psycholinguistics, and he thinks he knows why humans act like they have a special talent for language, that other animals don't. But his theory is based on evolutionary assumptions, that some other linguists, and theologians, disagree with. — Gnomon
Are you referring to Pinker or Singer meddling in Philosophy? Both are guilty, but that's what makes them interesting to me. Philosophy picks-up where Science is forced to stop, due to its self-imposed limitations. However, I agree that Singer sometimes goes to unwarranted extremes. And Pinker is usually careful to note his flights of philosophical fancy. :smile:I like many of Singer 's books - until he sets foot in philosophy. — Wayfarer
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.