From an ontological perspective, music being an eternal existent and therefore not contained within the confines of space and time is rather intriguing. — TimeLine
has often been compelled to artists like Jeff Buckley or Joni Mitchell, mostly because of thehonesty in the lyrics — TimeLine
Well first, "authenticity" is a nonsensical concept with respect to the arts. The attribution of "authenticity" is subjective and doesn't consistently correlate with any objective facts at all. Surely some people who use "authenticity" as a metric for whether any particular music is worthwhile or not are basing their attribution on some reaction they're having to the music--some way they're interpreting the music, some way it makes them feel, but it's not at all clear just what that reaction is. — Terrapin Station
music being an eternal existent and therefore not contained within the confines of space and time is rather intriguing — TimeLine
what exactly is authentic music — TimeLine
An aspiring musician who seeks to be authentic many not be as technically savvy in the short-term by comparison to one who pursues technical knowhow, but their technique will grow around an authentic aesthetic—and it is the latter which we most appreciate and enjoy listening to. — javra
And hey, if its of any consolation, I dully acknowledge my own lack of authenticity in many a way ... though I aspire to not be fake in the way I live. — javra
Whilst I appreciate your obdurate tone, the conveyance of aesthetic value and the meaning of the referent “authentic” though clearly ambiguous nevertheless illustrates the term to be context-driven. My question outlined two particular areas with the first related to performance, and unlike a painting where you actually have the original piece that one can claim to be authentic, music being notated and the instruments used all differ along with the musician’ interpretation or choices that the governance of the performance challenge our understanding of what expressive authenticity may actually be. In addition, authenticity encourages an interest in the original performances and historic conventions that enable a moral significance to sustaining the composition, tonality and musical structure as intended by the author at the time of its development.Well first, "authenticity" is a nonsensical concept with respect to the arts. The attribution of "authenticity" is subjective and doesn't consistently correlate with any objective facts at all. Surely some people who use "authenticity" as a metric for whether any particular music is worthwhile or not are basing their attribution on some reaction they're having to the music--some way they're interpreting the music, some way it makes them feel, but it's not at all clear just what that reaction is. — Terrapin Station
That just seems like nonsense to me, too. Why would it be an "eternal existent"? And there isn't anything outside of space or time. — Terrapin Station
The Greater Perfect System and the diatonic scale is interesting, but the metaphysics is lacklustre at best. The existence of natural mathematical laws as exemplified by the musical science that governs harmonic relationships that become the navigational tool to higher planes of existence or creation is probably a place I would avoid in preference for the phenomena of music' moral position in consciousness.Do some reading on Pythagoreans and the exploration of the relationship between ratio and harmony. — Wayfarer
What's probably going on instead is that the lyrics of artists like Buckley and Mitchell are resonating with you, you can relate to them; they're "honest" for you so to speak. But it's important to realize that that can differ from listener to listener. And it doesn't actually tell you anything about Buckley or Mitchell. — Terrapin Station
Whilst I appreciate your obdurate tone, the conveyance of aesthetic value and the meaning of the referent “authentic” though clearly ambiguous nevertheless illustrates the term to be context-driven. My question outlined two particular areas with the first related to performance, and unlike a painting where you actually have the original piece that one can claim to be authentic, music being notated and the instruments used all differ along with the musician’ interpretation or choices that the governance of the performance challenge our understanding of what expressive authenticity may actually be. In addition, authenticity encourages an interest in the original performances and historic conventions that enable a moral significance to sustaining the composition, tonality and musical structure as intended by the author at the time of its development.
The second and perhaps the phenomenological aesthetic of my enquiry does not deserve what appears to be your dismissal of the validity of subjectivity vis-à-vis authenticity, on the contrary sensuous experience and intuition – what is clearly your indifference to empirical states of reality – is engrossed with the question of what the conditions are that enable music to provide conscious meaning. If we think of popular music, for instance, is it a socio-political mechanism that exposes the habitual and thus requires a type of musical reductionism to ascertain the authenticity or the intentionality behind it? Richard Wagner and the use of his compositions to kindle fascism, for instance. If it is not clear what that reaction is, the intention of philosophy is to clarify hence the Platonic quote at the end of my post. — TimeLine
:-} I actually found TimeLine's post quite decent. Authenticity is a way of creating music creatively - to be interested in authentic music is to be interested in music which means something - on a deeper level it means to be interested in the creative activity of the soul which gave birth to the crystallised (and hence dead, not alive) music. Indeed this creative activity that is searched for through authenticity is primal - a feature of Being itself. Alas, all this is probably too "continental" for your narrow analytic sensibilities... ;)Jesus Christ what a load of balderdash. — Terrapin Station
I actually found TimeLine's post quite decent. Authenticity is a way of creating music creatively - to be interested in authentic music is to be interested in music which means something — Agustino
What has Jesus got to do with your cognitive limitations?Jesus Christ what a load of balderdash. — Terrapin Station
We call music authentic when it crystallises (ie objectifies) the creative activity of the soul - its creative struggle. All music is dead by this definition. Some music though is also empty of content; "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - such is the music that is created by many modern artists, where their main aim is to sell.Re the rest, there's no such thing as souls, what in the world is "dead" versus "alive" music — Terrapin Station
Individuals create meaning in response to reality. The creation of meaning is what the Universe itself does through people. And yes, there is no doubt that meaning is subjective - it's about how you - Terrapin Station - relates to reality. It's your own response to reality.But individuals create meaning, and different individuals can do that in response to different things. — Terrapin Station
To distinguish that I'm talking about Being - the ground/activity of Being - not any particular being.and I'm not sure what you're referring to with a capital "B" "Being." — Terrapin Station
No. I'm talking about music which is meaningful. Not all music is meaningful. Not all music is a creative expression of the individual. And it has nothing to do with me assigning meaning personally - I see the meaning of others in it. And this is so with all art - when I read The Sorrow of War by Bao Ninh, it's not me putting meaning in there. It's the author! I experience the meaning that the author has placed in there - I experience the protagonist's anguish when he sees his own girlfriend raped for example - and for a moment, he and I become one. His infinite brokenness becomes my infinite brokenness - I have creatively assimilated his meaning at that point.So would you only be saying that you're referring to music that prompts you to assign more meaning to it personally? — Terrapin Station
Philosophy is also a language, so would that make it the highest music?Music is another language. One needs a certain mastery of the mechanics of a language; having which one forgets it while using it in the urgency of communication. Or then again one can master the language but find one has nothing to say to anyone.
. — unenlightened
Philosophy is the highest universal language - but universality is, paradoxically, not Reality - for what would Reality be without the particular? And the particular is exactly what the universal must exclude to be universal. And so there is a price paid to achieve universality - it's a butchering of Reality. Philosophy can achieve division - but never unity. The philosophy that comes closest to achieving unity is that which moves and moves and moves - only to, at the point when it is just about to achieve completeness, it denies itself and sees itself as nonsense - one must throw down the ladder after he has climbed as Wittgenstein put it :) - unity is realised not through philosophy - but through doing philosophy - through the philosophical activity itself, which reaches its own quietus.Philosophy is also a language, so would that make it the highest music? — TimeLine
Philosophy is also a language, so would that make it the highest music? — TimeLine
What would the bottom most one be sitting on? :-Olanguages come in a heap with one at the top — unenlightened
This aspect of the eternal properties was precisely my initial enquiry, however I disagree that it is merely butchering reality, on the contrary the divisions that we create is the way in which we increase language; as unenlightened said though completely irrelevant to the question, join a band to improve. We would not be who we are without society and the constructs we create to develop and increase knowledge, without which we would be nothing. Is music a part of or can in enable or strengthen this language?Philosophy is the highest universal language - but universality is, paradoxically, not Reality - for what would Reality be without the particular? And the particular is exactly what the universal must exclude to be universal. And so there is a price paid to achieve universality - it's a butchering of Reality. Philosophy can achieve division - but never unity. The philosophy that comes closest to achieving unity is that which moves and moves and moves - only to, at the point when it is just about to achieve completeness, it denies itself and sees itself as nonsense - one must throw down the ladder after he has climbed as Wittgenstein put it :) - unity is realised not through philosophy - but through doing philosophy - through the philosophical activity itself, which reaches its own quietus. — Agustino
Philosophical activity though is different from philosophy. I said philosophy butchers reality - I outlined a different possibility for philosophical activity.however I disagree that it is merely butchering reality — TimeLine
Music deals with different aspects then philosophy and in different manners. Music functions by touching one's heart and soul. Philosophy cannot deal with what music deals, except abstractly - universally - but never in concreto.Is music a part of or can in enable or strengthen this language? — TimeLine
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