Because they commit violence on college campuses and disrupt college speakers such as Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson. Those aren't fascists. — BitconnectCarlos
Antifa is using violence and intimidation to shut down the rights guaranteed to us. — BitconnectCarlos
Neither. An amendment can be added and it's not an attack on the founding principles. Obviously something being passed in the 1970s wouldn't be a founding principle.... — BitconnectCarlos
What constitutes fascism" is an extremely relevant question. If you believe it's good to punch a Nazi or a racist and violent suppress that type of speech, what about Zionism or capitalism? Can we punch capitalists if capitalism is essentially white supremacy? This is a really important question. — BitconnectCarlos
But no I don't believe in violence unless its self defense. — BitconnectCarlos
There's a difference between violence for national defense or in the case of a civil war versus violence within a society. It's a very different kind of thing. — BitconnectCarlos
So you DO think I'm obliged to treat all your points but you are free to shrug off the ones you "didn't feel like" responding to? Do you see how dual standards is endemic throughout your thought? — Kenosha Kid
Okay, so you agree then that an amendment is a change to the founding principles your country was based on. You also seem fine with the founding principles your country was based on changing. It seems now quite a hollow complaint. — Kenosha Kid
Your right is that the government will not pass laws that allow you to express your persona beliefs. Antifa is not a reformist group. How have they then breached your first amendment rights? Explain it, rather than just repeatedly claiming it, because as far as I can see Antifa has resulted in precisely zero government legislation against your freedom of expression. — Kenosha Kid
Wait, now you're back to saying that you have a right to be heard. I thought we'd dispensed with that. You're essentially arguing against the right for people to protest, as long as they're the wrong people. — Kenosha Kid
Is it your view then that the anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-white-supremacist movement as a whole must be considered as such? I ask because you don't seem to have such concerns about far-right groups such as neo-Nazis and the KKK who have a more consistent history of violence (consider Charlottesville, for instance). — Kenosha Kid
The American revolution started out as random violence (against property) culminating in a million dollars worth of tea being dumped into Boston Harbor. There was no self defense to it.
So your line isn't self defense, is it? — frank
The American revolution was a struggle between a colonizer and her colony. I'll certainly condemn some methods that American patriots used against the British though. In any case the American revolution isn't a good comparison to draw to today's situation. I also think the violence that the Americans used was coordinated. — BitconnectCarlos
The Boston Tea Party happened because wealthy New England merchants like John Hancock were getting their prices undermined by the British who subjected them to unfair economic practices.... the two issues are quite different. The American revolution was violence towards the British government which was the mother colony. — BitconnectCarlos
Nobody is really supporting violence against American cops due to George Floyd, at least not sane people. — BitconnectCarlos
I see you're digging in on this. I was just looking for where your red line really is. It's obviously not self defense, but what? I'm guessing you tend to approve of violence when it's perpetrated by your allies? — frank
I could respond to this but I'm forgetting its relevancy. — BitconnectCarlos
Yeah, antifa not being a reformist group and instead being a revolutionary group basically means that they have no respect for laws. — BitconnectCarlos
If someone is in a private forum like a university or a governmental hearing you need to abide by the rules. — BitconnectCarlos
Antifa has also assaulted journalists. — BitconnectCarlos
I obviously condemn the KKK and neo-Nazis, that goes without saying. — BitconnectCarlos
Freedom of speech does not mean a freedom to occupy whatever platform you choose. You do not have the freedom to take over university spaces — Kenosha Kid
Good, so you understand that you are not protected in defacing property you don't own — Kenosha Kid
And presumably you're not going to suggest that fascists should be free to engage in violent acts but Antifa not free to defend themselves. — Kenosha Kid
Where the red line is in terms of when exactly violence is justified? I can't possibly have an absolute answer for that, — BitconnectCarlos
No, you DON'T obviously condemn the KKK and neo-Nazis. Your primary concern is that they are not getting the voice you think they should despite the fact that they are systematically violent and intolerant, that evil anti-fascists are denying them their right to expression by exercising theirs. The hypocrisy of far-right argument is always the same. You DO obviously condemn those that fight back, you go out of your way to do so and tar as many on the left-wing with the same brush as often as you can. Condemning the violence of the right is always a last resort when you realise you can't actually judge the left for rare acts of violence and uphold the long and horrendous history of violence of the right. "No, they're bad to but let's back to Antifa..." It's overtly BS dude. The day the likes of you and Nos OBVIOUSLY condemn the violence of the right wing I will have a heart attack. — Kenosha Kid
Okay, so it's nothing constitutional even, you just dislike people who protest on campus, presumably no matter what they're protesting about. It's college. There's going to be protests. — Kenosha Kid
Your entire argument against anti-fascism was that it opposes the founding principles of your country. I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your position. — Kenosha Kid
It's bad also to assault journalists including if you're an Antifa member. — Kenosha Kid
So if you're not reformist, you obviously don't respect the laws. That makes no sense. Are you a reformist then? — Kenosha Kid
You know, you might not know this about me because my username is "Carlos" but I'm actually not hispanic. — BitconnectCarlos
So do you need me to condemn that? Because you never know, I could support it. How many times do I need to condemn that for me to be okay in your book? Should I also condemn the holocaust? I just wanna make sure I'm cool in your book and that I'm one of the good guys. — BitconnectCarlos
Antifa doesn't seek to work within the system, antifa seeks to destroy the systematic violence of fascist and racist groups. — BitconnectCarlos
I recanted on the first amendment argument. I said that I don't like them because they're thugs. — BitconnectCarlos
What an odd thing to say. The only meaning I can extract is that you think it's possible that, if you were Hispanic, it would be understandable that you might pro-fascist. — Kenosha Kid
You condemn the entirety of Antifa if one of its members punches a journalist — Kenosha Kid
but you disregard anti-fascist expression for being disruptive. Does this sound in any way decent and fair to you? — Kenosha Kid
Are you at all familiar with the more militant side of the movement? If I remember correctly antifa has assassinated people and tried to commit terrorist acts. — BitconnectCarlos
I'd be happy to revise my opinion on the demography of ideas in antifacist actors given present data about it! — fdrake
It seems to take a perceived stage of emergency, as you say, to generate common approval of antifascist action among liberals. — fdrake
A person's reasons depend on the person. I don't think "a persons reasons depend on the person" is an allowed move in the game of ideological/demographic generalisation we've engaged in so far. It destroys all generalisation. — fdrake
I don't mean to convince you that the emergency is as great as it was back in WW2, I mean to convince you that it's reasonable to conclude that the current state of things is a growing state of emergency. — fdrake
Antifascist action is a preventative measure in the same way that education is on a societal level. — fdrake
I'm with you 100% that widespread antifascist education would be a good thing for society, though. It just seems that there's no way to educate the knives out of those protesters' bodies. — fdrake
There it is again. If an Antifa supporter who is a violent asshole with a gun shoots into a crowd, it is Antifa who has "assassinated" someone, despite the group having no centralised responsibility.
During the 2020 election, some Trump supporters protested the vote and shot and knives people. Are all Trump supporters responsible for this, or just the individuals who did it? — Kenosha Kid
I would definitely face off KKK ralliers with signs and chanting. Maybe a rotten egg or two. It doesn't help anything to hurt people, but it definitely helps to let everyone hear that the KKK has no business being engaged as a serious point of view.
It's all symbolism. It affects the way people think about themselves and how they assess what's acceptable.
When would you decide it's time to stand up and say something? Melodramatic question, but how would you answer it? — frank
Have any of you guys read any real fascist work? — Bertoldo
There are plenty of antifa communes where they live and eat together and I'd suspect that at least some coordinate together. — BitconnectCarlos
Maybe we should ditch this game of ideological generalization then? We seem to be on a very different page. Your inspirations for antifascism seem to be Jewish partisans while mine are black-clad, weaponized young men who have murdered cops and obstruct ambulances trying tor reach hospitals. These aren't the "bad apples" either - street obstruction is a common tactic. — BitconnectCarlos
Have you ever seen Scared Straight? — BitconnectCarlos
There were two or three rows of police who were pressed up against the crowd and they had their truncheons drawn, although as I said, this was when things had quietened down a bit. Behind these rows of coppers were a number of police on horseback. There was one particular copper there, he was in the second row, and he was frothing at the mouth trying to get at people. He was hurling all sorts of abuse and urging the other coppers to attack us. I then felt a push behind me, and I turned around and saw that someone had fallen over. I didn’t have a clue who it was at the time but I now know of course that it was Kevin Gately. I heard afterwards that he had fainted due to the crush of the crowd. There was a shout that somebody had fallen and I shouted “Ease back, ease back.
Give him room.” This evil little copper then started shouting “One of the bastards is down. Quick let’s “rush them. Trample him.” I looked at him and said quite calmly “You vicious bastard. I’ve got your number.” I could see he wanted to get at me, but the coppers in the front row were inadvertently blocking his way.
...
I’ve been asked many times if I think the police killed Kevin Gately. I can’t say for certain that they did but if someone is charging into a packed crowd, waving around a truncheon and saying “Let’s trample the bastard” then, well, I’ll leave it for you to judge. — Dave Hann, Physical Resistance
We have reached a point in this country in which free speech is a thing of the past, organised bands of "Reds", armed with sticks, bottles and razors, attend all important meetings which threaten their position... The reason our Fascist Defence Force has been organised (is to protect free speech) — Oswald Mosley
What exactly do you mean when you say "It's all symbolism. It affects the way people think about themselves and how they assess what's acceptable." — BitconnectCarlos
In terms of when it's time for me personally to stand up and say something, well, personally I don't really go to protests. I'd probably just ignore the klan. I'd probably look them up and down since they're a rare sight here in Massachusetts and walk right on by. I'm really not one to attend protests and start yelling at other people because I don't like their views. I actually don't like dealing with people in large groups, I prefer dealing with individuals — BitconnectCarlos
If you want to change a klansman's mind you're not gonna do it by debating him. his hatred is in his heart, it's personal. check out daryl davis, he's a black man who has befriended over 200 klansmen and got them to renounce the klan. it's a billion times better than punching them. that's how you gotta do it. — BitconnectCarlos
There it is again. If an Antifa supporter who is a violent asshole with a gun shoots into a crowd, it is Antifa who has "assassinated" someone, despite the group having no centralised responsibility.
During the 2020 election, some Trump supporters protested the vote and shot and knives people. Are all Trump supporters responsible for this, or just the individuals who did it? — Kenosha Kid
This is a strategic weakness of liberal democracy, as noted by Schmitt. Free speech absolutism provides absolutely no defence against bad faith and subversive actors from within the system, in fact all that is needed to be done to get people on the side of bad faith actors is for them to claim they are being silenced. So long as liberal democracy is willing to hold free speech to such high regard it risks facing the bad conclusion of the paradox of tolerance; erosion of the very norms that were protected. So long as people side with these bad faith actors, antifascist action will be required as a counterbalance to defend liberal norms. An unglamorous job, as everyone hates them for it.
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