:clap: :clap: :clap:

Is 80 million votes against Trump really that hard to believe? He worked very hard for over 4 years to demonize half the country, after all. — praxis

:rofl:
Demonizing half the country is what politicians on both sides have been doing for decades, and your just now noticing? I guess you're right because Hillary lost after demonizing half the country. But then that is why people vote for their political party - because they have been indoctrinated to think that the other party are demons.

All I hear and read about is the sanctimonious idea that what has been happening is not America, but it is America.

America behaves as if it’s the only country that has free elections and it’s all such a tragedy for Democracy. Somehow they can’t see who and what they are. It’s a lie that’s crumbling. All they possess is power. Maybe it can be saved, maybe not. But doing the same thing over and over leads to the same thing.

I see yesterday as a great day for the Republican party. It signals the end to the nightmare that is Trump. Mainstream Republicans can now safely distance themselves from him instead of being forced into cowardly acquiescence. Yesterday was not Normandy, but Appomattox.

Can we just take a moment to reflect on the fact that the "coup attempt" was a rational conclusion from Trump and the GOP's politics, that it was egged on by Trump and the GOP, that Trump is still egging it on, and only at the last second when GOP members realised the optics of the coup attempt were sufficiently bad did they back out?

Can we just take a moment to reflect on the fact that the "coup attempt" was a rational conclusion from Trump and the GOP's politics, that it was egged on by Trump and the GOP, that Trump is still egging it on, and only at the last second when GOP members realised the optics of the coup attempt were sufficiently bad did they back out? — fdrake

My take throughout this process was that the vast majority of Republicans stood by Trump in order to maintain party unity and to avoid his vicious response to disloyalty. The hope, I think, was to allow the clock to run out with his baseless protests and conspiracy theories about the election. Despite making all his claims, no Republican effort meaningfully attempted to overturn the election. No Republican Governor, Secretary of State, election board, or legislature actually failed to certify their election results, and no Republican or even Trump appointed judge accepted his arguments. Most notably, in Georgia, Republicans took a beating from Trump for their disloyalty because it appears that Trump thought the very Republican controlled state was his best bet in decertifying results. Up to the last minute, it looked like McConnell would be able to control the Republican Senators from signing on to the objections to the election, but he was not able to. In any event, no one actually thought the objection to the Electoral College votes in Congress would result in any change to the final election result.

As to whether the Republicans were cowards, fearful of doing the right thing, they certainly were. As to whether the rank and file actually believed the Trump nonsense, I doubt it. As to whether the Republicans can now remove themselves from Trump now that he has revealed too clearly what and who he actually is, yes. And that, as I said above, is the positive takeaway here. I don't see the rank and file GOP as much as co-conspirators in attempting to steal Biden's legitimate win, but as pathetic cowards fearful of losing their power who knew better.

40 percent of Republicans polled approved of the Capitol mob attack.

The congressmen who objected were trying to take control of Trump's supporters, aiming for popularity in 2024.

This is the same crowd who earnestly believed Obama is the Antichrist. This is the crowd who fears there are nano-trackers in the covid-19 vaccine.

They aren't going away.

As to whether the Republicans were cowards, fearful of doing the right thing, they certainly were. As to whether the rank and file actually believed the Trump nonsense, I doubt it. As to whether the Republicans can now remove themselves from Trump now that he has revealed too clearly what and who he actually is, yes. And that, as I said above, is the positive takeaway here. I don't see the rank and file GOP as much as co-conspirators in attempting to steal Biden's legitimate win, but as pathetic cowards fearful of losing their power who knew better. — Hanover

Does their intent matter if they were benefitting from advancing a politics that lead to a coup attempt? And as @frank said 45% of Republican supporters stand by Trump's coup attempt. They're not dumb; the last four years the GOP's made this bed, they should lay in it. Of course they won't, and we're expected to believe the majority of the party were cowards with noble intentions or alternatively that "both sides" do exactly the same thing.

This is the same crowd who earnestly believed Obama is the Antichrist. This is the crowd who fears there are nano-trackers in the covid-19 vaccine.

They aren't going away. — frank

This nano tracker idea would be novel if we weren't all willing to pay for the one most carry in their pocket.

Stay healthy my friend :flower:

This nano tracker idea would be novel if we weren't all willing to pay for the one most carry in their pocket. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

With two cameras and a microphone! :lol:

:up:

Glad I could help. :victory:

They aren't going away. — frank

I wish covid had killed/would kill more of those dickheads. Perhaps china could (allegedly) engineer a more effective virus in that regard.

wish covid had killed/would kill more of those dickheads. Perhaps china could (allegedly) engineer a more effective virus in that regard — The Opposite

Unfortunately the risk isn't distributed that way. :worry:

45% of Republican supporters stand by Trump's coup attempt. — fdrake

This is not entirely true, but it’s how things are done these days.. 45% of interviewed Republicans said they support the protestors. They did not say they supported “a coup”. Does anyone really believe these people were attempting a coup? That’s what the media have called it, even an insurrection. It was a violent protest carried out by people who believed they were wronged. That’s not a coup. Where’s the evidence of a coup? That these people intended to remove the government? How exactly?

I would agree with this. Essentially a bunch of dumb fucking sheep getting their rocks off. Wouldn't know a coup if it bit them in the ass.

They did not say they supported “a coup”. Does anyone really believe these people were attempting a coup? — Brett

I think Trump's pentagon changes suggest that he was thinking about a coup. Plus numerous comments during his presidency pointed to that.

His followers aren't exactly anchored in reality, so it's possible that they thought they were revolutionaries.

A failed attempt at a putsch - certianly more so than a coup or 'insurrection' - is, I think, probably the most appropriate way to speak of it.

A failed attempt at a putsch - certianly more so than a coup or 'insurrection' - is, I think, probably the most appropriate way to speak of it. — StreetlightX

Gotta hand it to the Trumpists, not even Hitler was able to get into the Ministry

A failed attempt at a putsch - certianly more so than a coup or 'insurrection' - is, I think, probably the most appropriate way to speak of it. — StreetlightX

:up:

Where should a protest end, how far should it go? What’s the point of a protest that requires permission to protest against the very authority that hands out the permission? What does it take to make change, and who’s right or wrong? Can change come from elections? What does real change mean?

All over the world people are protesting against their governments or their actions. Whatever the issue the consistency is people taking to the streets because of their dissatisfaction. All over the world people feel that governments are no longer representing their interests.

If you support Antifa protests then you must support BLM and consequently you must also support the Capitol Building invasion. If what makes one more legitimate than the other is the level of violence or the things they stand for, then you delegitimise all protests and reduce them to permission granted by the authorities which weakens them until they’re just empty gestures.

Governments treat the people like fools. Not only do they deprive them of jobs, income, health and security but they deprive them of dignity. How are people meant to fight back? How long before they come for you and there’s no longer room for effective resistance?

A failed attempt at a putsch - certianly more so than a coup or 'insurrection' - is, I think, probably the most appropriate way to speak of it. — StreetlightX

I don’t think it’s even that.

Presumably the ministry was not 'protected' by cops who would otherwise have been rioters on their off-days.

Worth comparing the contemporary German response to their own corresponding neo-Nazi's trying to infiltrate parliament, held off by a mere three policemen.

Which is not to celebrate the sanctity of 'congress buildings' or 'seats of government', whose destruction ought to be, in certain cases, a very good thing. Especially the American congress, which is in any case soaked in blood. This is one of the things that annoys me about alot of the mainstream, liberal response to what happened. There's alot of hand-wrigning about an 'attack on democratic institutions' - as though this was the main issue. No, the main issue is the name and purpose of that attack, which was aggression in defence of a corrupt plutocrat who lost an election - all while enabled and supported by the cops, who effectively handed them the keys before murdering one of them. For many other reasons, the looting and destruction of that building would be a perfectly fine thing.

The disgust levelled at those violent cosplayers ought to be separated from the celebration of a symbol of power and bloody oppression.

The disgust levelled at those violent cosplayers ought to be separated from the celebration of a symbol of power and bloody oppression. — StreetlightX

Exactly. They went for the source of power and corruption.

Another point not made enough: for all its drama, the failed putsch is still political theatre. It effected nothing of consequence on the political scale. At best, it corroborated everything we already know:

The differential police response to wannabe fascists and civil rights movements is exactly as was expected;

That this spasm of violence was a glaring confirmation of impotence of Trump's repeated efforts at overturning the vote, and a final nail in its coffin;

That Trump - but not Trumpism - is a dying political force, especially within the Republican party, which is all but happy to throw him to the wolves, despite their complete complicity in the events that occurred;

That when push comes to shove, the cops still owe their loyalty to the state, and will gun down citizens if necessary, no matter what sympathies they have with the rioters.

There's a scene in the New Testament where Jesus goes to the Temple and starts flipping tables over because he was outraged about something.

What if Jesus was just like that guy with the horn hat? Just totally nuts?

I don’t think it’s even that. — Brett

Yea, they thought they were going to stop the certification, after which Trump would magically become a dictator.

40 percent of Republicans polled approved of the Capitol mob attack. — frank

Which is a minority of Republicans, of people that voted for Trump.

I think that a major reason why both Kelly Loeffler and Perdue lost the Georgia was because they both jumped on the Trump train. Q-anon beliefs gets a minority excited, but annoys a lot of conservatives Republicans, who all are now called RINOs.

Republicans simply don't see how stupid and counterproductive it is to support Trump. But I guess that they think that people will forget.

Trump somehow strikes a chord with the millions of people who support him. If it was not Trump, it would be someone else. I have a lot of respect for the Republicans who objected to the election results. Politics is about gaining support, and if 80% think the election was stolen then they are playing politics, it is an old game. Of course there may be a better way. It does not make sense to call them undemocratic. They accepted the final result in the end did they not?

It is interesting that people insist that there were no irregularities - of course this opens up the whole thing even if they accept even one incident of fraud. Maybe that is why they don't. I have no way of knowing one way or another: either I take CNN's word for it, or I take Trumps word for it, this is not how an argument is settled. On the face of it, it is hard to believe Biden won. It is also a very close election, and irregularities in other elections do cast a large shadow over the result. So agnosticism is the order of the day I would think. A few months down the road I think we will see some cracks appear.

Given that the Republican Trump supporters are not all insane, it then follows that they are making some sort of a rational calculation here. They are either seizing on minor irregularities to gain some political support, or the fraud actually happened. It seems impossible that they are all risking their career on something that cannot be proven if not now, in the next four years. If there is even one case of an fraud that had affected one result in the election, even one state, you can say goodbye to the Democratic party. The Capitol carnage will seem minor in comparison.

Lets look at the facts so far:

Popular vote:
Trump 46.8 Vs Biden 51.3 . 4.5 % difference.

Arizona 0.4%, Georgia 0.2%, Nevada 2.4%.

And then there is this: this actually happened. Not saying there is fraud, but in close elections the system does not inspire a lot of confidence.

After what appears to be the tightest congressional election in decades, Rita Hart, a state senator, has decided to forgo a legal battle in her home state and will instead contest the election directly with the House Administration Committee. Iowa election officials certified Republican Mariannette Miller-Meeks as the winner on Monday after a recount diminished her initial victory margin from 47 votes to only 6 votes.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/02/rita-hart-iowa-challenge-election-results-442224

As you might expect with such a close margin, the two campaigns are fighting for every single vote. Miller-Meeks declared victory, but Hart called for a recount of all 24 counties in the district on November 12. The latest front in that fight is in Scott County, where Miller-Meeks campaign alleged Sunday that the recount is "illegal" because it is being done both by hand and by machine.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/iowa-2nd-district-mariannette-miller-meeks-rita-hart/index.html

The lead had earlier flipped back and forth between the candidates after the discovery and correction of two major tabulation errors.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2020/12/30/steal-attempt-now-official-iowa-democrat-asks-fellow-democrats-to-overturn-election-she-lost-n2581975