, both can happen.

Sure, Trump will be there on Newsmax and perhaps even on Fox commenting and repeating how he was swindled from an election victory (the line he already had ready for the 2016 elections), but honestly the media will get interested about Trump only if he is put on trial and faces prosecution after January 20th. Who cares what he tweets, if he gets back his twitter account?

The place where Trump actually wants to be. Or something similar:


In 2024 Trump will be even more toxic to a large segment of Americans than Hillary was. So that's the future of Trump. What can happen is that many will try to take the legacy of Trump in order to get his followers, or the remnants of his followers. In the end too many people will be tired of Trump. But he won't be discarded as Sarah Palin or the Bush clan.

Young politicians who are interested in the legacy of Trump:


And secondly, the polarization will thrive, even without Trump. Nothing will change that.

Haven't we seen how American grass root movements evolve already? First it was the Tea Party, which morphed to Trump supporters, who morphed to Q-anon supporters and into the mob that ransacked Capitol Hill. On the other side you had first the Occupy Movement, which morphed then to BLM and antifa supporters. In fact, that few people call themselves antifa and are there to fight the fascists itself shows where this all is going.

What you are looking is something like a Weimar America. It's already here, Americans are already living it. If the roaming street gangs in Weimar Germany were the Nazis and the Communists, you already have the American versions of them going around. And they will just further alienate themselves from the democratic process. Sorry to say it, Biden won't stich up this.

Purpose in life for a few, that won't "go home". The few who will dominate the media scene in an otherwise peaceful US:


Let's remember that storming of the Capitol Hill was a continuation of a tactic that we had already seen during the Covid demonstrations in Michigan. The mob of the street is now well entrenched to US politics. It works. It get's publicity. Hence, it won't go away.

Anyone remember Michigan?

When protesters “stormed” the senate building a couple years ago, 600 protesters and a Dem Congress-woman were arrested occupying the senate building. — NOS4A2

The only difference is how these people are being portrayed in the gutter press: one group as terrorists, a violent mob, and the rest as concerned protesters and activists. — NOS4A2

If you genuinely can't see the difference between a peaceful sit-down protest for immigration policy reform and a mob attacking police, smashing windows, and trying to use home-made bombs to stop the democratic process when it doesn't go their way, then you really are a poor example of a human being.

The mob of the street is now well entrenched to US politics. — ssu

You’re probably right here. It’s possibly similar in Europe. I’m not sure about that. To combat this I think the average person has to be more proactive in politics. But they’re also locked out of that process. The battle with daily life saps them. Which works well for politicians. Obviously violence doesn’t work because it frightens people. Insecurity is a powerful deterrent to challenging the system. Who can begin this process, where does the best ground lie? But whatever, people have to get more active. But activated by what? By issues or potential leaders or their personal situation? The poor can’t fight, the middle classes feel threatened by all sides. The young could do it but they seem to be unaware of history and politics.

What do you think?

However that does not mean I cannot also find the deaths that this leads to tragic. Such an attack is not black and white, it is black and black. — Tobias

What I find truly tragic is that a nation which was one the smartest and most benevolent on Earth has been dumbed down to such a level of stupidity and hatred, where something like 40% of the people hate truth and wish their democracy away... That is truly tragic because it means thousands more deaths are in store, be it through inept COVID response, sheer idiocy and lies, or more violence. The death of that rioter symbolizes the cultural decline of a once great nation, its disunity, its lack of wit, the sheer stupidity and meaness of its political discourse. In that broader sense I agree it is tragic.

a nation which was one the smartest and most benevolent on Earth — Olivier5

Is it possible that was never really true, only a belief or hope? And if it was like that, then when?

Well, there was the great generation, the folks who fought and won in WW2. Those guys basically saved the world. Now their descendents doom the world, they are becoming a nuisance, an enemy of mankind.

I can't say for sure whether or not it was actually true (I have my doubts), but to be the best at something that most humans are historically pretty bad at, like being smart, or being benevolent, isn't all that high a bar. The US could have been (and definitely was) pretty dumb and malevolent and yet still been smarter and more benevolent than all the other dumb malevolent countries out there, at some time or another.

The so-called "Greatest Generation" mostly aren't alive anymore. The youngest of them would be about 100 years old now. It's their kids, the Boomers, who are the present nuisance.

Well, there was the great generation, the folks who fought and won in WW2. — Olivier5

Those guys basically saved the world. — Olivier5

Not them alone though. Ironically the USSR was part of it too. Are they part of the guys that saved the world? But let’s say you’re right. It’s a very short period over the span of American history.

The US could have been (and definitely was) pretty dumb and malevolent and yet still been smarter and more benevolent than all the other dumb malevolent countries out there, at some time or another. — Pfhorrest

Than all the other malevolent countries. True. But what about Britain, Australia, Canada? America may have had more wealth than these countries, but were they benevolent? They did demand their pound of flesh from Britain for loans that kept Britain on rations after the war.

Edit: American exceptionalism, what is it?

I was referring to this curious Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

And also this one:

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

For example, everyone has the right to join the Trump Supporters group if they want.

BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families growing up focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work.

Ironically the USSR was part of it too. Are they part of the guys that saved the world — Brett

Yes of course.

But let’s say you’re right. It’s a very short period over the span of American history.

There were a few great American leaders before, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, etc. JFK in my opinion was of the same great American alloy. Too bad they killed him. Then there was the civil rights folks. MLK, Malcom X, Angela Davis, etc.

Now they have Sanders, who lost brilliantly to Biden, who won over The Douche, which must count for something... Let's see what Biden can do. History is not over.

Letter to America: Don’t give up.

You’re probably right here. It’s possibly similar in Europe. I’m not sure about that. — Brett

This is what I'm worried about, because we Europeans really ape all things that happen in the US.

Especially the local media copies very often the American discourse and puts it into the domestic setting, however different the European country actually would be from the US. Something that is trending in America will get people want to have it here too. Trumpian populism is already popular in many countries. And demonstrations in the US are extremely popular than some local petty problems: just notice how the George Floyd demonstrations and riots spread to other countries (not only the UK) is very telling. Greater cause when it's happening in the US. People will try to find the equivalent sides to portray similar US positions in their totally different European setting. Who cares for things like that the US has a totally different history from ours.

Parliaments as semi-open public places are lucrative perfect targets. Usually their security measures focus on checking the people going into the balcony (or similar place) to watch the proceedings. Yet just walking from a main door through couple of doors means that and you are likely inside the chambers of the Parliament. Parliaments usually aren't build as let's say Military Headquarters, that have been built to shut areas from outside and not be open. If demonstrators storm the Parliament, that will be an event for the history books and far more noteworthy than your typical demonstration turned a riot with looted storefronts and burned cars. Those happen ever so often in some countries.

. Obviously violence doesn’t work because it frightens people. — Brett

I think many are just happy with that. Some even here think violence is justified as a tool for demonstrations and that peaceful protests don't work.

BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work. — Ansiktsburk

Why do you assume that they have a daytime 9-5 work?

Have you seen the stats for unemployment these days during the pandemic?

BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families growing up focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work. — Ansiktsburk

What 'ya doin' hangin' around PF, get to work!

What I find truly tragic is that a nation which was one the smartest and most benevolent on Earth has been dumbed down to such a level of stupidity and hatred, where something like 40% of the people hate truth and wish their democracy away... — Olivier5

It never was the 'smartest and most benevolent on earth', or maybe it was but that would be truly coincidental. It is just a myth of American exceptionalism. the US is built on a form of genocide which in today's enlightened age would amount to crimes against humanity. In the 1930s' it had laws not much different from those of fascist European nations (Other Eruopean nationshad such laws as forced sterilization of minorities etc, as well). It was a leading superpower, it had a lot of money, but the smartest and most benevolent, come on. Maybe that price goes to... well.... Czechoslovakia for instance? though they never had the clout to play a meaningful role of the world stage.

As for it being 'dumbed down', yeah but so have other nations, including my own. I prefer the Rhineland model over the Anglo Saxon one, but I fear the European are not 'smarter' than Americans, even though they very much think they are.

You ain't much if you ain't Dutch (or Norwegian, Swedish, Finish, Danish or German). All these countries have far superior, functional democracies, welfare, happiness, legal systems etc. than the US could ever achieve. And they're still problematic in a lot of areas.

What 'ya doin' hangin' around PF, get to work! — Tobias

And you?

You ain't much if you ain't Dutch (or Norwegian, Swedish, Finish, Danish or German). All these countries have far superior, functional democracies, welfare, happiness, legal systems etc. than the US could ever achieve. And they're still problematic in a lot of areas. — Benkei

Scandinavain and aint so sure about that.

The cops are the same people as those who made their way into the capitol. The distinction is a costume and a badge. — StreetlightX

The cops and the protestors are the exact same people. There's no big mystery here. Both are costume donning larpers with a propensity to violence; one with an official mandate from the state, the other with an unofficial one. — StreetlightX

ACAB.

BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work.
— Ansiktsburk
Why do you assume that they have a daytime 9-5 work?

Have you seen the stats for unemployment these days during the pandemic? — ssu

I assume that the toomuch people never envisioned a 9-5 job, rather making plans on "what they want to do with their lives". The toolittle people, well, question is if they feel they CAN get a 9-5 job. Tougher to be in that position, granted. But still...
Protests of this kind did not start with the virus. And guys doing this kind of hullabaloos dont seem to care about the virus being spread. Social distancing does not seem to be the name of the game in "protests"

One of the Trump supporters who stormed the US Capitol was carrying 11 Molotov cocktails and an assault rifle, prosecutors say

At least for now, Benkei.

As the saying goes...

Yes we can too!

BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families growing up focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work. — Ansiktsburk

So I suppose you support a socialist economic model with a jobs guarantee?

For the time being the plurality of political parties means any extreme view probably won't garner more than 20% support and ensures a broader spectrum of views. We have our share of populists of course but so far most of them are idiots in one way or the other. Our current popular populist hates women, which is always a nice way to alienate 80% of women.

Plurality of political parties is the natural safety valve in a democracy. A system of two parties has integral problems right from the start.

Our current popular populist hates women, which is always a nice way to alienate 80% of women. — Benkei

Nice for you! The "reasonable" yet devoted populist is the worst possible politician.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ranked-20-happiest-countries-2020/?sh=24c1ecd97850

https://www.therichest.com/rich-countries/10-countries-with-the-happiest-children/

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/safest-countries-in-the-world.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/the-10-most-economically-stable-countries-ranked-by-perception?slide=5

https://worldjusticeproject.org/our-work/wjp-rule-law-index/wjp-open-government-index/global-scores-rankings

https://nomadcapitalist.com/2017/04/30/best-countries-rule-of-law/

I'm certain you and I live in some of the best countries in the world. If anyone has a right to be patriotic, it's us.

Nevertheless they prompted an outpouring of anger, grief and denial from his hardline acolytes. “A punch in the gut,” said one. “A stab in the back,” another railed. From a third: “I feel like puking.” — Some Trumptards

In reaction to Trump his denouncement of the violence last Wednesday. :rofl:

Trump represents a moving of the goalposts. The real legacy of Trump will be Republicans doing antics like they did in this election in every single election and setting the stage for the next set of Republican leaders to push the envelope even farther.

I am starting to unironically think that the final stage of capitalism will be a global fascism in which 99% of the population will die. It is, at least, a way to statistically achieve superabundance: just kill all the poor and undesirable folks.

a myth of American exceptionalism — Tobias

I never believed in any exceptionalism and am not saying Americans are magically removed from the human race's problems or America built on some shiny hill, just that they have dug themselves pretty deep right now as compared to the past few decades. The trajectory is downward, and they have reached a new low. Including in terms of mental health.

What are they going to do now? Arrest and trial thousands including the cops and armed forces who took part in the sack of the Capitol? Biden won't do that, I think. Too cleaving. I guess the important thing right now for him and his team is to manage security during the inauguration.