I suspect that what you call "emotional information" is what I'm calling "intention". Repeated signs of intention (directional ; goal-oriented ; teleological) is what we call a "Trend" or "Tendency". In humans, an inclination toward some effect has an internal cause, which we call "Motivation" or "Emotion". In my thesis, I call the ultimate motivator, the Enformer : the source of both Momentum (inertial energy) and Direction (regulation, laws). Metaphorically, it's the Pool Shooter. :joke: — Gnomon
Even a seemingly self-creating Strange Attractor requires a system already programmed with the potential for new forms to arise from a patternless background — Gnomon
FWIW, here's a quote from my blog post explaining the neologism of "EnFormAction".Central to the self organizing system is an attractor, rather then a causal element, that is not to say causation can be excluded . — Pop
EnFormAction is not a physical force, pushing objects around. It’s more like Gravity and Strange Attractors of Physics that “pull” stuff toward them. It is in effect a Teleological Attractor. — Gnomon
Ironically, the world model of Physics seems to be primarily biased toward disorder (entropy), so like an explosion of fireworks, it's all downhill after the Big Bang. However, physics also has discovered pockets of order within this dying cosmos, such as galaxies & stars & solar systems. And within our own local system, as far as we know, only Earth has fostered the emergence of Life & Mind. But physics has no good explanation for how or why those small pockets of negentropy could emerge, if the universe is a one-way street to "heat death". So, it's not physically true that "all parts are biased towards order".The way I understand it is that in a universe biased towards order, all of its component parts must also be biased towards order. — Pop
Yes. My worldview is indeed based on discoveries of Science, and especially Physics, that indicate the ubiquitous workings of Information (EnFormAction) in the world. But my thesis followed the physical evidence back to a metaphysical explanation for Life & Mind & Emotion & Bias.Your understanding seems largely grounded in physics which blocks out the emotion and bias, and so cannot answer the why of cause . . . . In my view, your Enformer ( energy + information ) lacks the impetus provided by emotion. — Pop
If my Enformer possessed human-like emotions, S/he would have to also possess a humanoid body -- the generator of visceral feelings -- like most of the god-models of human civilizations. But, since I have no revelation from G*D, I can't say with any authority what G*D is like. That's why I assume that G*D has no Actual attributes, but only infinite Potential for all possible qualities. :smile:If your Enformer also possessed emotion, then with energy, information, and emotion would be equal to consciousness, which is equal to self organization. I have noticed that Donald Hoffman has recently received tenure, so it seems there is some momentum in this direction. — Pop
Ironically, the world model of Physics seems to be primarily biased toward disorder (entropy) — Gnomon
So, it's not physically true that "all parts are biased towards order". — Gnomon
So, there must have been some "Why", some "Purpose" that broke the static symmetry of equally balanced possibilities, to allow a bias toward Order & Life & Mind & yes . . . emotions. :cool: — Gnomon
In what sense are those particles "self-organizing"? Don't they require pre-existing natural laws and energy to organize Potential Matter into specific measurable arrangements (patterns) of energy & mass? The currently accepted theory of matter says that invisible formless fields, not particles, are fundamental. The emergent particles are imagined as Virtual Particles that exist only in statistical Potential until some mysterious perturbation goads them into physical Actual existence. Before that actualization event they exist only as unreal in-commensurable mathematical probabilities in an algebraic equation. Anyway, those ghostly virtual particles don't voluntarily self-organize into real physical particles. Instead, they only jump like a frog when poked with a stick. :joke:Everything is made from three self organizing things - electrons, neutrons, and protons. — Pop
Then that would be an exception to the rule. In fact, even your example would require Maxwell's imaginary "demon" -- a spiritual entity -- to sort-out hot from cold particles. The Thermodynamic Law still prevails, until magic is used to overcome physics. :joke:The second law of thermodynamics fails in the case of a rectangular closed environment, disorder levels of and no longer increases - Heat death would not occur! — Pop
The Law of Thermodynamics assumes, as an axiom, that our universe is a closed system, with no divine (or demonic) interventions. But, scientists still admit that the world is open-ended at both ends : a> in the Big Bang, inputs of laws & energy ; b> at the Final Freeze, the heat death of the whole system. Admittedly, some physicists conjecture that some of the energy & laws could leak-out of the system via Black Hole tunnels into the infinite world outside our little verse. But, they are still searching for evidence --- along with persistent UFO believers. :yum:but yes you have a point if the universe is a closed system, and If it falls to equilibrium, which it is not going to do any time soon. — Pop
Yes. The human mind understands the world in terms of logic & meaning. Logic implies a chain of cause & effect, but what was the First Cause? And meaning implies Purpose, but whose teleological intention could be invoked to explain the temporary existence of our running-down world, with pockets of anti-themodynamic Enformy? Whether my thesis is True or not, is too soon to say. :nerd:Its a hard thing to say, -- why? -- and we say it for slightly different reasons, but it seems logical and true. — Pop
The currently accepted theory of matter says that invisible formless fields, not particles, are fundamental. The emergent particles are imagined as Virtual Particles that exist only in statistical Potential until some mysterious perturbation goads them into physical Actual existence. — Gnomon
The Law of Thermodynamics "assumes", as an axiom, that our universe is a closed system, — Gnomon
But, scientists still admit that the world is open-ended at both ends : a> in the Big Bang, inputs of laws & energy ; b> at the Final Whisper, the heat death of the whole system. — Gnomon
Cosmic Progression Path — Gnomon
Originally, Black Holes were assumed to permanently remove Information (energy + matter) from circulation in the universe. Now, some physicists speculate that black holes may be tunnels from our known universe out into the speculative Multiverse. Until they find some evidence to support that possibility, I won't attempt to fit those Information Leaks into my Enformationism thesis.What about the black holes? What is dark matter and energy? How would things change if we understood the other 85%?? — Pop
Complexity Theory applies to isolated chaotic systems, which have a limited lifespan. But the Cosmos seems to be gradually organizing itself (self-organization) despite the pull (bias) of Entropy back into a chaotic state.I like it. It seems the rate of change is ever increasing. But in complexity theory the curve progresses and then suddenly collapses, like the Bronze Age , Roman empire, etc. — Pop
Complexity Theory applies to isolated chaotic systems, which have a limited lifespan. But the Cosmos seems to be gradually organizing itself (self-organization) despite the pull (bias) of Entropy back into a chaotic state — Gnomon
- I like this very much.Energy itself is amorphous & immaterial. So if you reduce energy to its essence of information, it seems more akin to mind than matter. — Gnomon
But how deep is this really? Beavers build dams, birds can solve puzzles, and yes as mentioned squirrels know to store away nuts for the winter. Are these all forms of consciousness or merely habitual instincts or behaviors learned through generations? What is human consciousness, as in consciousness that is allocated/available solely to humans?A mere advanced form of this or something much greater we've yet to understand? — Outlander
Cosmologists, looking at the universe as a whole system, conclude that it began in a hot & dense state, and is inexorably moving toward a cold & diffuse state. A rather dismal outlook. But, on a brighter note, they also observe that there is at least one pocket of organization that is like Goldilock's porridge : "just right" for Life & Mind. Our little planet happens to be in the habitable zone of not too hot & not too cold. To them, that rare coincidence looks like a random accident. So, even those, who are looking for habitable planets outside our solar system, would conclude that the universe as-a-whole is biased toward disorder. And that conclusion confirms their disbelief in a benevolent intelligent creator.A think it is fair enough to say that the universe is biased towars order. It is true at least for the local observed universe, in local time. — Pop
Yes. Human emotions are hormonal effects that produce the feelings we crudely categorize as happiness, sadness, disgust, fear, surprise, and anger. But, in various contexts, those basic feelings interact to form more complex sensations that also have names, but are still too complex to define succinctly in words.We cannot conceptualize emotions we can only feel them. :100:
We cannot conceptualize energy, we can only feel it. 80% - any thoughts?
Therefore emotion is a form of energy / enformation ?? - a force? — Pop
uman emotions are hormonal effects that produce the feelings we crudely categorize as happiness, sadness, disgust, fear, surprise, and anger. — Gnomon
motivating forms of physical Energy — Gnomon
Generic Information or EnFormAction — Gnomon
Yes. Human consciousness has always been assumed to be awareness of the immediate present. But recent studies have shown that our awareness is always a beat behind the actual event. Part of that delay is the split-second it takes for processing of incoming information. But another part seems to be due to the necessity to compare the new information with memory, in order to assign it to a meaningful category of our worldview -- to make sense of it. So, our Present is always in the recent Past, and our projections into the future are mostly extrapolations from memory. :smile:but something critical to consciousness is awareness of time (past, present, future). — Outlander
I'm not aware of any evidence to indicate that human consciousness is significantly different from animal consciousness, or even from that of single-cell organisms. So it seem to be just a higher degree of general awareness (integrated information) of the internal milieu & external environment. Some have proposed that a moral conscience is added to animal consciousness along with the human soul. But almost all animated creatures appear to have some degree of social awareness & altruism. Yet, only humans seem to generalize that Me & You concept into abstract symbols & shareable words & viral memes. :nerd:What is human consciousness, as in consciousness that is allocated/available solely to humans? A mere advanced form of this or something much greater we've yet to understand? — Outlander
Therefore, the universe is generally chaotic, but contains a seed of EnFormAction, which is indeed biased toward order. :smile: — Gnomon
Energy, that physicists take for granted, is also an invisible, intangible, immaterial causal force. And it's obvious that one of its many forms is the visceral motivations that we call Emotions. :joke: — Gnomon
Yes. I was not trying to provide a complete analysis of the difference between visceral Emotions and mental Feelings. :smile:You're almost there but I think Damasio is more successful describing emotions and feelings (they re not the same thing). — Raul
I was making an obscure reference to Damasio's distinction between physical Emotions and metaphysical Feelings, as abbreviated in the previous post. :nerd:motivating forms of physical Energy — Gnomon
Ufff... here you lost me. — Raul
Sorry. My Enformationism Thesis proposes a new paradigm of empirical physical Science & theoretical metaphysical Philosophy. So, it uses a lot of neologisms that combine some modern reductive materialistic concepts with ancient holistic incorporeal notions. You'd have to be really motivated to expend the mental energy to completely comprehend that novel worldview. In this forum, I'm only giving glimpses of that strange new world. The concept of Integrated Information is a highly technical version of the old idea of Holism : that a whole integrated system (such as a human brain) has new properties/qualities (self-consciousness) that are not evident in its component parts (neurons). :cool:Generic Information or EnFormAction — Gnomon
Lost again, your theory of consciousness is too long to digest but I'm curious on what you think about the Phi of Tononi and his IIT. Thanks. — Raul
You're almost there but I think Damasio is more successful describing emotions and feelings (they re not the same thing). — Raul
because living systems can do nothing other then self organize. — Pop
Feeling our Emotions : — Gnomon
metaphysical Feelings — Gnomon
Tononi and Koch seem to have bitten the bullet and accepted a form of panpsychism — Gnomon
Consciousness itself seems to have no material attributes: — Gnomon
Information is Generic in the sense of generating all forms from a formless pool of possibility — Gnomon
Spontaneous self-organization as spontaneous decrease of entropy ? I'm not sure "self-organization" is an exhaustive enough word. I like Damasio's argument much more that says the purpose of emotions is to maintain homeostasis, survival. — Raul
Perhaps you interpret "metaphysics" as the study of unreality, or of the supernatural. But that's not what I'm saying.Why metaphysical feelings? What does a feeling be metaphysical? — Raul
Even Christof Koch, a major proponent of IIT, refers to it as a modern form of Panpsychism. I understand why they use that common-but-outdated term. Yet, I think it has been misused by New Agers to imply all sorts of spooky notions. So, my own version of an all-mind world would be "PanEnformationism". Information is universal, but Consciousness & Subjectivity are limited to a few brainy animals at the top of the food chain.Searle says that as well. I disagree, I do not understand IIT as a form of panpsychism but I understand why many people think this way. — Raul
Enformationism is merely my coinage for the cutting-edge concept in Physics & Cosmology, that everything in the world is a form of Information : Energy, Matter & Mind. The novelty that I have added is to make it a topic for study in Philosophy, specifically in Metaphysics : the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.What is the novelty and the implications of your Enformation? — Raul
we can't study the Mind empirically, we must investigate it philosophically — Gnomon
mental flip is required to view the other side. — Gnomon
I understand why they use that common-but-outdated term — Gnomon
Enformationism is all natural, no magical. — Gnomon
cutting-edge concept in Physics & Cosmology, that everything in the world is a form of Information : Energy, Matter & Mind. — Gnomon
Hey, it works for me. But, I'm not holding my breath, waiting for the next momentous Paradigm Shift, that was prophesied by New Age heralds, and fringey physicists steeped in Eastern philosophy. For me, it's just a personal worldview. — Gnomon
What "missing implications" are you referring to? What do those cosmic constants have to do with the First Cause inference? In my thesis, I merely assume that all constants were established in the Initial Conditions encoded in the Big Bang Singularity. They may seem arbitrary to physicists, but as Einstein discovered in his "biggest blunder", those seemingly random numbers do play a significant role in defining the particular path that evolution takes. Just as the random numbers of PI are essential to the creation of perfect circles, random constants my be essential to the creation of a "perfect" world --- from the Programmer's perspective, not necessarily from yours or mine.By the way, in your Enformation concept I think you're missing implications of quantistic theories to our naif-intuitions on time and space, cause-effect,... once you understand some of quantum theories you start grasping that God, the initial cause, is maybe not needed if time is relative to the properties of our universe based on a mix of astronomic constants or maybe it was God to set them up? — Raul
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.