I just think that it is useful to think about generalisations, to think what lies behind them. I am in favour of looking behind surfaces, on a psychological and philosophical level.

If we had been at an earlier stage of history, it could have been that there had been less concerned for the elderly. — Jack Cummins

We'll see how consistent this concern is as time progresses.

I do believe that we are at a stage in the life of humanity which has transcended the emphasis on 'the survival of the fittest'.

Given the looming socio-economic crisis, hardly. But we'll see what happens. If we're still around.

I am inclined to think that one of the problems with any current rise in Nazi values is more of a backlash against the way in which most people have already overcome a fair amount of prejudices already.

This overcoming of prejudices could be just temporary, due to the luxury of relative soco-economic stability.

What makes something true is how well it works.
— Athena
Then threatening people with eternal hellfire and burning them at the stakes are good practices, for they work!

I do not know the first person who said "look for God in everyone", I just know doing so has a positive effect.
Yes, the Holy Inquisition were "looking for God in everyone" as well.

In the short term the Nazis were very successful, but today, Germany acknowledges the wrong done to Jews, and through education attempts to right the wrong and prevent it from happening again. The US occupies land held by indigenous people, and we have learned they were right about our planet being a living organism and that we need to protect ecosystems so they work as evolved to work.
But today is not yet the end of the story.
Take Nazism, for example: it's being rehabilitated. If the current trends are anything to go by, it might not take that much before it rises to power again.

The Romans conquered the Greeks but it is the Greeks who live on in our understanding of democracy and through the philosophy we share and science we develop.
Read again. Whose letters are you using to write this? — baker

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?

But the act of generalising precedes the group. — bert1

Good point.

Obviously, there are some groups that are "motivated from the inside", ie. where a number of people get together, decide to be a group and decide on a group identity. Religious and political groups are like that.

And then there are groups that are "motivated from the outside", which is where are number of individuals who don't necessarily feel like they have anything in common or that they are a group, are perceived as a group by other people. For example, people with alcoholism don't perceive themselves as members of a group, even though some other people perceive them as such.

I do agree that it is not clear how long the concern for the elderly and vulnerable will last. It could be that the luxury of the stability we have known in the socio-economic climate of our times has given rise to this. My own feelings about the future fluctuate. We will have to wait and see what happens in the future. I am inclined to think we are at a very critical juncture at the moment.

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal? — Athena

They were burning people at the stakes and threatening them with eternal damnation. It worked, in that the population at large acted in line with the way the Church wanted them to.

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?

You were praising the ancient Greeks and dissing the ancient Romans -- while using Roman script.
Rather ironic, don't you think?

I am not sure about the point of people with alcohol problems not seeing themselves as part of a group. I am thinking of the whole history of the AA movement. I would say that self- help groups have been a significant force in uniting people with alcohol problems and other issues which people identify as a focus.

I am not sure about the point of people with alcohol problems not seeing themselves as part of a group. I am thinking of the whole history of the AA movement. — Jack Cummins

But prior to that, they characteristically didn't. It's an identity assigned to people with alcoholism by others.

Some individual people with alcoholism still don't see themselves as part of the group" alcoholics" and refuse to internalize the identity that others have prescribed for this group.

I would say that self- help groups have been a significant force in uniting people with alcohol problems and other issues which people identify as a focus.

And such groups are a good example of how people internalize the identity ascribed to them by others; ie. they internalize the prejudices of others.

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?
— Athena
They were burning people at the stakes and threatening them with eternal damnation. It worked, in that the population at large acted in line with the way the Church wanted them to.

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?
You were praising the ancient Greeks and dissing the ancient Romans -- while using Roman script.
Rather ironic, don't you think? — baker

Yes, people were ignorant and superstitious and yes the Church attempted to create social order, but if we are speaking of the Catholics, they were not in favor of claiming people are witches and burning them at the stake. That was more a protestant thing and there were so many different groups of protestants they never had the power the Catholics had. Actually, the witch hunts were more secular than religious. Someone wrote a book about witches and educated people used the book to hunt witches. Here is a marvelous explanation of why witch hunts spread like a pandemic.....

“Similar to how contemporary Republican and Democrat candidates focus campaign activity in political battlegrounds during elections to attract the loyalty of undecided voters, historical Catholic and Protestant officials focused witch-trial activity in confessional battlegrounds during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation to attract the loyalty of undecided Christians,” write the study’s authors, Peter T. Leeson, an economist at George Mason University, and Jacob W. Russ, an economist at Bloom Intelligence, a big-data analysis firm. — Gwynn Guilford

Perhaps you did not know, the Romans such as Cicero were educated in Athens. Rome basically adopted Greek technology and ignored its culture, but a good example of influence of the Greeks is Rome's attempt to be a Republic and the Bible. The original Bible being written by converted Greeks claiming Jesus is logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe.

The Greeks played a huge part in ending the Christian war against Christians. As you know they were killing each other as some believed Jesus was the son of God and others thought Jesus is God. The Greeks had no problem with a god taking human form. Romans didn't think anyone became a god until death transformed a human into a god. They lived next door to the Egyptians whose pharaohs were gods. The point is the Greeks had a better language for defying Jesus, and the Romans could not do this until having a word for the Greek concepts.

Yes, people were ignorant and superstitious and yes the Church attempted to create social order, but if we are speaking of the Catholics, they were not in favor of claiming people are witches and burning them at the stake. That was more a protestant thing and there were so many different groups of protestants they never had the power the Catholics had. Actually, the witch hunts were more secular than religious. Someone wrote a book about witches and educated people used the book to hunt witches. Here is a marvelous explanation of why witch hunts spread like a pandemic.....

“Similar to how contemporary Republican and Democrat candidates focus campaign activity in political battlegrounds during elections to attract the loyalty of undecided voters, historical Catholic and Protestant officials focused witch-trial activity in confessional battlegrounds during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation to attract the loyalty of undecided Christians,” write the study’s authors, Peter T. Leeson, an economist at George Mason University, and Jacob W. Russ, an economist at Bloom Intelligence, a big-data analysis firm.
— Gwynn Guilford — Athena

Oh, that's cute! I haven't heard this one yet.

When I'm grading students, and it's a tough call on the grade, I often find myself giving the black students a lower grade. I catch myself doing this all the time.

Oh, that's cute! I haven't heard this one yet. — baker

I am quite sure there are many things you have not heard yet. What concerns me is I don't think you have a desire to learn of things you do not already know.

When I'm grading students, and it's a tough call on the grade, I often find myself giving the black students a lower grade. I catch myself doing this all the time. — RogueAI

I commend you on your honesty here. How do you deal with it when you do catch yourself? Have you found an alternative way of differentiating grades?

It is brave of you to admit to this. I think bias occurs consciously or unconsciously all the time.

I think it probably goes far beyond being about certain characteristics. I remember handing in a piece of work at school, in which I forgot to put my name on and it ended up with the highest mark that teacher ever gave to me.

On some courses I have been on work is labelled with a candidate number instead of names to make marking so much fairer.

Unconscious bias is recognised within work interviewing. Training courses are being designed to address it, but from what I have read in literature, there is not clear evidence that such training really helps overcome the problem fully.

When I'm grading students, and it's a tough call on the grade, I often find myself giving the black students a lower grade. I catch myself doing this all the time. — RogueAI

Good for you being so self-aware. I feel a desire to give you defense. Like if I were a teacher and had Christians in my classroom, I would also assume there is a lot they do not know and their parents do not want them to think about. This so evident in college when Christian belief made some of science a difficult subject.

In the past, we did more to transmit a culture to our young, and this was pretty limited to the culture of White people. People of color were likely to score lower on IQ test because they had less exposure to that culture. It appears we have been dealing with this problem with education for technology that does not transmit culture to anyone, but just because public education isn't transmitting culture, it does not mean parents are not transmitting culture. What subject are you teaching?

I am quite sure there are many things you have not heard yet. What concerns me is I don't think you have a desire to learn of things you do not already know. — Athena

If Christians want me to change my mind about them, they're going to have to do better than pass the buck for the witch hunts.

I commend you on your honesty here. How do you deal with it when you do catch yourself? Have you found an alternative way of differentiating grades?

Thank you. Yeah, computerized grading helps. Same with deliberately not looking at names on assignments. This is mostly a problem when I'm doing final grades/subjective grades (e.g., reading fluency) and deciding who deserves a bump up. I just step back and try and look at the student objectively.

That's funny you mention it, I just had a training on implicit bias. It was very good. No one was demonized. I think we need more of those trainings.

On some courses I have been on, work is labeled with a candidate number instead of names to make marking so much fairer. — Jack Cummins

I love that solution. :clap:

I had a teacher write a huge red F covering my work because she was angry with me. :lol: I got her back. I refused to cooperate with her and of course, I didn't pass, but she didn't win either.

Thanks, Athena. I teach 6th grade, which is all subjects. I have the same group of kids all day (virtually, now).

If Christians want me to change my mind about them, they're going to have to do better than pass the buck for the witch hunts. — baker

Who do you think is a Christian? :rofl:

That's all very well. But take the group of cunts. They're all cunts aren't they? They just are. Same with wankers, there's no non-wankers among them.

All groups are composed of individuals. There is nothing connecting one individual to the next. One can try to bridge that gap with generalizations and words but none of that means anything outside of human imagination.

If this bias comes into marking of exam papers, I am sure that people make similar biases in just about every part of life. I am not speaking of you, but everyone. It probably operates on who gets served first in shops and who gets the best housing and an endless variety of matters.

The only thing that can happen is for people to be made more aware. Most situations in life cannot be monitored, so beyond this, biases probably cannot be eliminated.

I agree we are individuals and it is unfortunate that we get put in little boxes all the time. Also, sometimes when people treat us less than others it may not be about prejudice, in terms of specific characteristics, but simply that about being disliked by the other person.

This still is can be prejudice, in being about preconceived notions. I once knew someone who said to me that the first time she met me she did not like me, but this changed as she got to know me. At least, she was willing to go beyond first impressions, because I don't think that people always do.

It could be just that. Maybe the difference lies in the object of scorn, whether it be an actual, extant individual or an abstract generalization. If scorn is not grounded in something that exists, one must aim it an idea, which is an extension of the self.

Yes, it is horrible when teachers and other people just seem hostile and sometimes we don't always know why, and are left wondering. We can try to put it down to certain characteristics, everything from race, gender, dislike of short or tall people, or hair colour etc. It is sometimes not clear.

That is where it gets complicated because if, for example, a black person gets treated badly it can be say the other person is racist. But, it would be hard to prove in a court of law, unless it is overt.

I think that the difference between scorn against an idea and a person is complex. I once was in a situation in which a white woman commented to a black woman, who was dressed in white trousers, 'I have never seen you looking so clean before.' The black woman spoke of being so hurtful, and it incorporate ideas about dirt and cleanliness, which are often projected onto others. I think this is getting into the social anthropology of prejudice, which involves cultural ideas.

Yes, it is horrible when teachers and other people just seem hostile and sometimes we don't always know why, and are left wondering. We can try to put it down to certain characteristics, everything from race, gender, dislike of short or tall people, or hair colour etc. It is sometimes not clear.

That is where it gets complicated because if, for example, a black person gets treated badly it can be say the other person is racist. But, it would be hard to prove in a court of law, unless it is overt. — Jack Cummins

The greatest discrimination is against poor people and conversely against rich people. We are perversely waging war on each other, rich against poor. And teachers in inner-city low-income neighborhoods are in hell. I attended one of the worst schools and I feel just terrible for the teachers who tried so hard to give us a good education, in such a terrible economic and social situation. Teachers in one of the schools I attended actually suffered post-trauma syndrome. Today in it is our representatives living in fear of their lives because of Trump's leadership, but back in the day, it was the teachers living in fear. In such bad circumstances, the relationship between students and teachers is not going to be good.

I think that the difference between scorn against an idea and a person is complex. I once was in a situation in which a white woman commented to a black woman, who was dressed in white trousers, 'I have never seen you looking so clean before.' The black woman spoke of being so hurtful, and it incorporate ideas about dirt and cleanliness, which are often projected onto others. I think this is getting into the social anthropology of prejudice, which involves cultural ideas. — Jack Cummins

Israel and Palestine have this problem. The Jews comment about how the Palestinians stink and believing the Palestinians to be inferior justifies treating them very badly which of course leads to Palestinians hating those who treat them so badly.

Thanks, Athena. I teach 6th grade, which is all subjects. I have the same group of kids all day (virtually, now). — RogueAI

What do you mean by all subjects? How much time do you spend on art and music? What history are you teaching? I don't mean to be mean, but I strongly favor all grade school education being liberal education and that is not what is happening anywhere I know if except maybe some private schools.

Nothing is more important to me than education. If your class addresses the issue of slavery, please, please explain serfs. (subject of thread) Feudalism is the enslavement of White people and we are lying to ourselves to believe it was any better than the slavery of people of color. Even people of color had slaves because back in the day that is what people did and discipline was kept by whipping people. Captains of ships kept order by whipping people. That was just the way it was and I don't think we are too far from that today because we maintain autocratic industry, authority over disposable people, and education for technology has always been for slaves. Liberal education is for free men.

I watch shows about children through history and around the world today, fighting to get an education, while our own children do not desire education and I am sure many have not followed through with homeschooling. Have you seen a copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference in Portland, Oregon? To me, that was one of the most important books ever written. We taught every child a set of American values, knowing they would help their immigrant parents become Americanized and this was particularly important as we mobilized for war. That was the first time we added vocational training to education and our middle class is the result of that education. I wish every school had a statue of liberty, holding a book for knowledge and a torch that is the enlightenment of knowledge.