Well, "going crazy" (psychotic) might be one way to escape from awareness of the psychic sufferings of reality. But, I don't recommend it. Also, I suppose that some cynics might consider prematurely reaching Nirvana (quenching the flame) via meditation to be a form of "mental suicide". In a more literal sense, the self-immolating monk apparently committed suicide, while meditating, but without actually quenching the flames. Yet, again, I don't recommend it. :sad: — Gnomon
Yes, some deep meditators are supposed to be able to shut-out physical pain while they retreat into an inner world of their own. Years ago, I knew a man, who had been through rigorous Erhard Seminars Training (EST), which included a form of non-buddhist meditation. He flew from California to my state to set-up an aerial mapping office in my college town. But, when he arrived, he realized that he was coming down with the flu. Since he couldn't take several days off for such personal problems, he decided to get it over-with in one night. So, he began to meditate, focusing on his bad feelings instead of a mantra. For about an hour, he felt really really sick. But, then got-up and went about his business with no more flu symptoms. That's what he told me. And I had no reason to doubt him. But what the monk did was pretty extreme. He took a quick but all-in path to Nirvana. :gasp:put this kind of distance between suffering and his own meditating self, — Constance
In a more literal sense, the self-immolating monk apparently committed suicide, while meditating, but without actually quenching the flames. — Gnomon
Well, Thich Quang Duc would be the definitive case in point. After all, being burned alive ON PURPOSE has got to be a whole other universe of superhuman feats. Makes Houdini look like mere dabbler. I put a lighted match to my finger in a microsecond it's too much to bear.Yes, some deep meditators are supposed to be able to shut-out physical pain while they retreat into an inner world of their own — Gnomon
If you said that in an essay on Buddhist philosophy, you'd get an 'F', unfortunately. — Wayfarer
There is no eternally-persisting anything in Buddhism. That's why, again, many of the early Western scholars characterised it as nihilistic - but it's not that, either. — Wayfarer
Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters — Dogen
Anyway, what I'm particularly concerened about is whether the Buddhist practice of denial emerges from knowledge or ignorance. Perhaps a simple example will get the point across better than trying to explain my predicament — TheMadFool
Perhaps I shouldn’t use this word. In essence I was pondering the existence of some “opposite/contrasting” state (That I will now leave unnamed haha) to that of suicide. One that is not typical to the average Human experience just as suicide is not typical of the average human experience but is an extreme end.
I might instead describe parameters without naming the phenomenon. Suicide once committed is permanent. So this alter ego state would also be (once established) permanent for the remaining lifespan of the person.
Instead of losing all hope, this state would be a self generating state of full hope/optimism that is unperturbed by suffering/ bad luck and negative experiences. Instead of suffering one is in a state of tranquility despite circumstances. — Benj96
Deep in martyrdom. His self-immolation was a political protest, similar to others of this kind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_self-immolations .I wonder, "where" do you think Thich Quang Duc was when he set himself ablaze? — Constance
There’s a pattern here. Recall the other day, you were arguing that hot and cold are on a continuum, and so couldn’t really be considered opposites. Here you’re using a similar argument in a different context. — Wayfarer
hypothetical claims — Wayfarer
I suggest you look up neti neti and ex negativo.However, the neither x nor not-x is not just a rejection of dualistic weltanschauungs is it? — TheMadFool
Who is commanding you, and where, to "treat everyone equally"?? — baker
Self-realized masters are said to have first-hand knowledge, while aspirants don't.In summary, a neither x nor not-x denial stance can arise from either knowledge or ignorance. In the case of Buddhism, which is it? — TheMadFool
In dharmic religions, suicide is not seen as an end to suffering. In those religions, killing oneself in an effort to end suffering only leads to another rebirth/reincarnation, and generally not a good one.seeing as suicide and suffering vs non suffering is a continuum common to all cultures ways of life and doctrines — Benj96
Whenever magic is involved in super-normal claims, I become skeptical. I don't know so much about Buddhist magic, but Hinduism has a long tradition of magical feats performed by "spiritual" tricksters, for gullible audiences. One example, that I'm familiar with, occurs in the US. It's called "Yogic Flying", or "Levitation by Meditation". This trick works best in still photos, because in videos it's obvious that it's muscles, not magic that levitates the meditators.do you know the meaning of 'siddhi'? They are the super-normal powers which yogis are supposed to attain through the perfection of dhyana. — Wayfarer
Ordinary humans can do some amazing, and disgusting, things when entranced by faith. In some Catholic countries, people celebrate holy-days by whipping themselves, til their flesh is in shreds. In Japan, disgraced Samurai (not necessarily Zen Buddhists) sometimes committed ritual suicide by hara kiri (belly cut). Self-disembowelment is one of the slowest and most painful ways to pay for the shame of public dishonor. That's just one of many reasons I try to avoid the mind-control methods of Faith. They too often require horrendous self-sacrifice for reasons that seem ridiculous to non-believers. :sad:Well, Thich Quang Duc would be the definitive case in point. After all, being burned alive ON PURPOSE has got to be a whole other universe of superhuman feats. Makes Houdini look like mere dabbler. I put a lighted match to my finger in a microsecond it's too much to bear. — Constance
Whenever magic is involved in super-normal claims, I become skeptical. — Gnomon
It's not just a Western "cultural taboo". Throughout history, miracle-workers, including Gandalf & Dumbledore, have warned against frivolous use of magic powers. And modern stage magicians tend to be careful when & where they perform. Probably, because those who get the big head, and believe their own tricks, may get careless, and allow their exploited onlookers to see through their smoke & mirrors. :gasp:Of course. It is a cultural taboo, and such purported powers are obviously ripe for explotiation. — Wayfarer
Actually, there are some people, who achieve seemingly supernatural feats, not by magic, but by self-control. In the article linked below, the "spiritual" elements seems to be profound self-confidence (faith), and the human body's response to the Placebo Effect (what you believe, the body will try to do). :brow:I don’t know. I think these “siddhi” if they were real word be of a more subtle and rationally achievable vein than flying or pain tolerance. — Benj96
I agree. But his martyrdom was no more miraculous than that of the Islamic Jihadiists who willingly blow their pain-feeling fleshly bodies into smithereens, motivated by their faith that they will instantly go to heaven, restored to whole youthful bodies, comforted forever by a bevy of beautiful babes. Apparently, the monk believed that he would achieve liberation from Samara (cycles of mundane rebirth & suffering).↪Gnomon
Of course, no argument from me there. But the picture of the monk self-immolating was hardly 'frivilous', I'm sure you would agree. — Wayfarer
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