his martyrdom was no more miraculous..... — Gnomon
Apparently, what adepts in meditation are able to do, is to be rationally aware of the pain, without suffering the emotional sensations. Self-confidence guru Tony Robbins' disciples, who walk on hot coals, seem to adopt a trance-like state of mind, that allows them to ignore their innate fear of fire, and to let their body's natural defenses control the minor damage from superficial burns. the fact that some do get fairly serious injuries indicates that it's Faith, not Magic at work. Again, I don't have that much self-confidence, and don't feel the need to prove my overcoming Faith. I'm OK with mundane pragmatic beliefs. :gasp:When being immolated, there is some period of time, perhaps many seconds, of continued awareness and presumably awareness of pain. — Wayfarer
I agree. That's why my personal philosophy, based on the Enformationism worldview, is the BothAnd Principle, which can be visualized in the Yin-Yang symbol, and practiced in the Buddha's Middle Path between extremes, and summarized in Aristotle's Golden Mean of moderation. Since appearances can be deceiving, when something seems "supernatural", I reserve judgment until I can know what happens behind the smoke & mirrors. Until then, I'll call it simply "preternatural", or "weird". :smile:↪Gnomon
I find there are generally two kinds of reactions to the suggestion of anything supernatural: shocked rejection, on the one hand (the most common reaction); or fascination, on the other. The ‘middle way’ tries to avoid such extremes. — Wayfarer
scientific rationalism, is a leaky sieve.// — Wayfarer
Self-immolation per se is not altruistic, especially if it's a cop-out on life, like some cases of suicide. But in this case, the monk sacrificed his own life for the betterment of his society. It was a political protest. But most politically motivated demonstrations only risk imprisonment. So this dramatic demonstration of love for others may have contributed to the eventual downfall of the Deim regime, which was being supported by the US military. As a Buddhist monk, he was not likely in favor of Communism specifically, but of regime-change in general. :smile:How is immolating oneself an example of altruism?? — baker
Please explain how his suicide contributed to the betterment of his society.But in this case, the monk sacrificed his own life for the betterment of his society. — Gnomon
Where is the "love for others" in his killing himself?So this dramatic demonstration of love for others
How?? By shocking them into having mercy for the Vietnamese Buddhists?may have contributed to the eventual downfall of the Deim regime, which was being supported by the US military.
He was a Mahayana monk, not a Theravada one, so different rules apply.As a Buddhist monk, he was not likely in favor of Communism specifically, but of regime-change in general.
That's beside the point. I was just guessing that his radical political statement of solidarity with his fellow Buddhists, was intended to accomplish that goal. Ironically, Vietnam eventually fell to the communists, who were not noted for their tolerance of any religion. Here, judge for yourself.Please explain how his suicide contributed to the betterment of his society. . . . How?? By shocking them into having mercy for the Vietnamese Buddhists? — baker
I wasn't "defending the acts of a Buddhist". Just giving an example of mind-over-matter, which is claimed to be an almost magical power of meditation. For the record, I don't believe in Magic . . . except, of course, for Stage & Movie Magic. I don't know if the monk achieved Nirvana, but if "good works" count for anything in Buddhist tradition, he should go down in history as a saint, right alongside all the Catholic and anti-catholic martyrs, who were burned at the stake for their pro or con beliefs.. :cool:(Too bad you have to quote a Christian scripture to defend the acts of a Buddhist.) — baker
That's the official party line, yes -- that he was a saint. But if you stick around Buddhism -- different schools of Buddhism -- long enough, you'll see that not all Buddhist opinions view those self-immolations so favorably.I don't know if the monk achieved Nirvana, but if "good works" count for anything in Buddhist tradition, he should go down in history as a saint — Gnomon
What is your canonical support for this claim?In Buddhism, desire of any kind leads to suffering. Nirvana is the absence of desire, a presence of mind which is neither for or against whatever IS in the present moment. — Present awareness
Again, what is your canonical support for this claim?The words attributed to the Buddha have formed the basis of the Buddhist religion. After achieving enlightenment, the Buddha taught that “desire is the root cause of all suffering” and
that “everything is impermanent, so avoid attachment and cultivate appreciation for all that IS, here and now. — Present awareness
Are you enlightened? Have you attained at least stream-entry?My understanding of Nirvana is that it is not a goal of meditation but rather a resulting state of mind, once all mental disturbances cease.
At 27 posts, you should be able to already post links.There is no such thing as an enlightened person, there is only an enlightened moment. All religions are based on someone else’s words.
If you google Buddhism, the text will be there. — Present awareness
Your doctrinal criticisms of Buddhism are going off-topic. The OP was not asking about the veracity of Buddhist doctrine, but only if any human mind can achieve an altered state in which the sufferings of life, and the fear of death are of no consequence. Personally, I doubt that doctrinal Nirvana per se is achievable, but it's obvious that some human adepts (such as the flaming monk) can approach a similar state of indifference to the outside world. I don't doubt that the mind can adopt measurable "altered states". But, when Mind Magic is attributed to those states, I might ask : "what is yourThat's the official party line, yes -- that he was a saint. But if you stick around Buddhism -- different schools of Buddhism -- long enough, you'll see that not all Buddhist opinions view those self-immolations so favorably. — baker
Such states are trivially possible. Just ask any meth addict.The OP was not asking about the veracity of Buddhist doctrine, but only if any human mind can achieve an altered state in which the sufferings of life, and the fear of death are of no consequence. — Gnomon
One cannot just ascribe to someone some words just because they "make sense to one". That's bestial.It does”t really matter whom said what or if anyone said anything, what matters most is does any of what was reported as being said, make any sense to you? — Present awareness
It does”t really matter whom said what or if anyone said anything, what matters most is does any of what was reported as being said, make any sense to you?
— Present awareness
One cannot just ascribe to someone some words just because they "make sense to one". That's bestial.
"This makes sense to me, therefore, [insert name of favorite religious/spiritual figure] said it" --????? — baker
Do you mean the things you ascribed to the Buddha? No.My point is this: regardless of word accuracy, does what was said resonate within you as being true? — Present awareness
My point is this: regardless of word accuracy, does what was said resonate within you as being true?
— Present awareness
Do you mean the things you ascribed to the Buddha? No. — baker
*sigh*Those whom seek nirvana, will not find it and those whom do not seek nirvana will also not find it and yet nirvana may still be found, nevertheless! — Present awareness
If I were to play the fool, perhaps temporarily don the mantle of so-called divine madmen, I would say, in accordance with Wayfarer's philosophy and in line with the Buddhist practice of avoiding dualistic paradigms, "neither is it true that there's such a thing as nirvana, nor is it true that there's no such thing as nirvana"
:lol: — TheMadFool
*sigh*
Are you enlightened? — baker
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