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I am reminded of Heidegger saying that before we cross a bridge we are already on the other side. — Gregory

It's just like the answer coming before the question.

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I am not sure about what you are asking, but I have been through a stage of reading esoteric literature while deconstructing the mainstream Christian views. I would say that encompasses the Gnostic and Celtic forms of Christianity, as well as movements such as alchemy, Rosicrucianism, the Theosophical tradition, the Kabbalah, the ideas of Jacob Boehme and many others.

My understanding is that these writers are intended for certain groups of people, often regarded as 'initiates'. There are many traditions and many writers and the ideas are subject to scrutiny. So, it is a big area, and I do think that you need to come up with a question as a means of focus.

I would not say: "before we cross a bridge we are already on the other side."
I would say: "The words themselves -"before we cross a bridge we are already on the other side." not us might be on the other side or anywhere else fot that matter.

How much wood can woodchuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood? :)

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I agree with you, and (as well) standby my suggestion that the answer ALWAYS comes before the question.

I might suggest, from my distant experience, that one cannot describe to the uninitiated, the effects of a hallucinogen such as LSD. Talk does not communicate an experience one has not had the like of. And yet, one can recognise the influence of that experience on the album, 'Sgt Pepper's', for instance. There are conversations one cannot have without having the experience they are about.

Cardinal Newman (1801-1890) once wrote that the imagination is our "intuitive conscience". — Gregory

Empathy is an act of imagination. I do not actually feel your pain, but I can imagine vividly and thus do not rub salt in your wounds.

There is nothing esoteric about esotericism, it is nothing more peculiar than the fact that if you haven't done the training and practice, you cannot really compete with elite athletes who have.

I have my question now:

Is esotericism clearly and distinctly distinguished from exotericism?

I'm considering words like thaumaturgy, theurgy, grimoires. If used in place of traditional words (e.g. if we SAY the ceremony of the Last Supper was a spell), does the line become blurry?

I've heard that the esoteric is about control while exoteric behavior is not. But many formal Chrstians are rather controlling and doesn't casting a spell usually require a lot of faith?

If someone says "there is literally a person who exists, well really three persons, who don't have bodies but who are (based on the use of the word Father by Jesus's human side) the real and true father of humanity "..well putting it that way sounds esoteric!

I guess one of the cruxes of this topic\subject is whether it's natural to love alleged beings who are non-human and not embodied. Is love them really just consciousness altering? FInally, what is the difference between a fairy and an angel?

You have now moved on to asking many questions. I have never heard of anyone saying the Biblical last supper was a spell and that would be an odd idea, as far as I can see.

I would suggest that the esoteric and the exoteric overlap insofar as the Gnostic ideas and Christianity had a complex relationship in early Christianity. Also, in some ways, the St John's gospel can be seen as falling in to the esoteric tradition, as does The Book of Revelation. To speak of the esoteric or exoteric being more controlling would be too simplistic as we are talking of many movements and the course of history.

I think that the idea of the Trinity is far beyond the scope of this post, as it such a complex debate within Christian theology.

Regarding the question of non material beings that is another enormous issue and we are probably talking about spirits. There is a whole tradition of angels, which can be seen as messengers of God and this is in the Biblical tradition. Some others have claimed to see angels, including William Blake. There have been many people who have written books on angels in the new age tradition, and spirit guides which are a related idea.

One of the difficulties is that some of the ideas you are talking about are such a mixture of religion and mythology. Some ideas are based more on imagination than others, especially with the whole genre of fantasy fiction, stemming from the tradition of Tolkien. However, even on a more historical level, many Christians have believed in the idea of the fall of the angels at the dawn of civilisation and this seems more based on the the ideas of John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' than Biblical. So, the question you raise draw upon thousands of years of thought, including religious thought, literature and mythology. As far as the idea of fairies, I would say that this is largely the realm of fantasy and myth although there is the Celtic idea of faery which refers to a belief in nature spirits, which are described as energetic forms which can sometimes be seen in nature, such as in gardens.

Thank you for your reply. I was thinking about art and aesthetics last night. What is the connection between art and religious belief? Mormon, JW, and most Protestant art that is not influenced indirectly by Catholicism is rather modern. Catholicism, for its part, traditionally had a much more ornate sense of style and I am wondering if this is related its dogmas (her belief that outward actions bestow grace as effective operation)

If the Catholic Church destroyed all its art and put an image of an eight armed, blue skinned guy forward as it's image of God, saying "we keep all our dogmas but past art did not represent it. This new image comes much closer to revealing God through art", would it be the same religion?did

The whole relationship between art and religious experience is extremely interesting. The making of images of God was actually forbidden in the Old Testament, under the second of the ten commandments, but throughout Christianity there has been so much art created of a visionary, religious nature. I was brought up in the Catholic tradition but I would imagine that the other forms of Christianity have plenty of it.

I would say that the study of religious experience is so bound up with the symbolism revealed in religious art. One way of thinking about this is the architecture and art of churches and other religious buildings, including the gothic movement and the many designs in churches, including stained glass windows. Part of the idea about stained glass windows is the whole way in which they are designed to reflect the light of the 'divine.' William Blake's art is extremely interesting in the way he depicts angels and demons, and this is supposedly based on his own visionary experiences.

The whole story of esoteric systems is also so bound up with symbolism, such as that associated with alchemy and the quest for the grail. Personally, I am fascinated with Hindu art and the power of the imagery it conveys. I think that the whole story of comparative religion is conveyed so well through looking at the icons and imagery within the various traditions.

I just noticed your last idea of an image of an eight armed, blue skinned guy as an image of God. It would be worth painting it and exhibiting it to find out. Of course, in some ways science fiction could be seen as a depiction of inner experience and almost has a certain amount of 'religious' power because some people claim to have seen alien forces. There is a whole tradition including van Daniken and Zachariah Sitchkin, in which there is a belief in early gods who came from space.

I'm think we 're getting somewhere but maybe words can't express it (Wittgenstein). Music for me is the powerful, highest form of art, and different religious traditions' religious music expressed much to us. I've listened to Daoist chants and they have an impersonal feel but one that is not turned inward like Buddhist chants. Gregorian chants reflect a specific aesthetic and is interesting compared to the more sensuous Islamic techniques. Sitar music is my favorite religious art form, well I should clarify in only listen to Ravi Shankar and his daughters music. It has the most authenticity. (Wikipedia in the article "criticisms of Christianity lists a number of Hindu philosophers who wrote against the static thinking of Christian Westerners). "Life flows on within and you without you" bridges Daoist and Buddhist traditions in this respect. FInally, there are the chants found on YouTube by the Bulgarian church. They kind of look satanic in the photos and there music instead strangely generic to my ears. But it is all subjective on the bottom line and who knows, maybe a genuine form of satanic Christianity is theological possible

You are more in touch with the traditional side of religious music. My own experience is of far more alternative music, including psychedelia and prog rock, and even some metal, but I do see it as a way of connecting with the powers in the universe in some primal way. I do have some music of a new age style, focusing on healing, including one musician Tim Wheater.

But I probably take art more seriously than music because I do a lot of art work. I would love to make art and writing of a symbolic nature. I have experimented in this briefly but not pursued as fully as I hope to. I find symbolic art fascinating, especially the more esoteric. I also like symbolic writing and I am trying to get through 'A Vision', by WB Yeats but it is taking me a while because it is difficult to read because it is extremely esoteric.