You just arbitrarily believe that though material events can cause immaterial events, the reverse is not true. — Bartricks
But a) nothing in the idea of material/immaterial causation violates those laws — Bartricks
b) if it did, then your view involves a violation of them as well. For how, exactly, does a material event cause an immaterial event without that involving a transfer of energy? — Bartricks
I decided - mental event - to raise my arm, and my arm raised - sensible event.
If all the evidence is that my mind is an immaterial thing, then what we have there is evidence that immaterial events can and do cause sensible events. — Bartricks
No; your decision was not based on your knowledge of the firing of certain neurones.2b. I decide to move my arm because certain neurones fired — khaled
Yep.1b. My arms move because certain neurons fired — khaled
No; your decision was not based on your knowledge of the firing of certain neurones. — Banno
Mental events appear to cause sensible events, yes? — Bartricks
If all the evidence is that my mind is an immaterial thing, then what we have there is evidence that immaterial events can and do cause sensible events. — Bartricks
Two descriptions:
1. My arms move because I decide to move my arm,
2. Certain neurone fire, causing specific muscle fibres to contract.
One event. — Banno
...neurons firing caused my decision. — khaled
Or on my asking "why did you move your arm?", you reply "Because my c-fibres fired...!" — Banno
1b. My arms move because certain neurons fired
— khaled
Yep. — Banno
I can't avoid the image of you sitting there saying "Ah, my c-fibres are firing - I think I might move my arm!" — Banno
Nuh. You don't think that. SO what's going on? — Banno
I didn't say otherwise. — Banno
"Material thing" - what's that , then? Is temperature a material thing? Light? — Banno
Let's drop that word, for fear of it leading us astray. Instead, go back to: — Banno
One event. — Banno
The problem is that materialism cannot explain how consciousness can arise from non-conscious stuff (e.g., working brain) when that stuff is put together a certain way. It can't even hint at the framework of a possible explanation. It can try and avoid the problem by claiming consciousness is illusionary, or other such non-sense, but that era is almost over.
The explanation is that consciousness cannot arise from non-conscious stuff. It's an absurdity. Since we know consciousness exists, therefore, we know there is no non-conscious stuff.
Now, what do you think the mind-body problem is, and how was it solved? — RogueAI
assuming the system is closed. — khaled
By 'closed' do you mean to exclude immaterial objects? — Bartricks
If the system includes them — Bartricks
But anyway, you now allow, clearly, that one thing can cause another without transferring any energy to it, yes? — Bartricks
If the mind is an immaterial object and not a material object, then one does not have to explain how consciousness arises from material substances, does one? It doesn't.
...so, European Autonomy is a material thing?Something extended in space. — Bartricks
I don't think material things exist — Bartricks
I call them 'sensible objects'. Let's call them that, for that term is neutral between materialist and immaterialist interpretations of them. Plus there is no dispute that my arm is a sensible object. — Bartricks
One event.
— Banno
No, obviously not. My decision is a mental event. No doubt it was caused by a sensible event. But it is a mental event. And it causes a sensible event. — Bartricks
There is no buildup there (or any reason) for me to say that. My c-fibers would fire. And then I would feel like moving my arm. And also my arm would move shortly after (not sure if the c-fibers also did that part or not). — khaled
...so, European Autonomy is a material thing?
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is a material thing?
The traffic code of New South Wales is a material thing? — Banno
I agree; but cups and chairs do. — Banno
No, because that's not right. The cup is more than just what I sense. Calling them such prejudges their existence outside sensibility. It won't do. — Banno
Not obvious at all. Seems to me that you are stuck with an unhelpful sundering of the mental from the physical. I offered you a way to mend the break. — Banno
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↪Banno "No, because that's not right. The cup is more than just what I sense."
How do you know that? — RogueAI
No, you're just an amateur. — Bartricks
They're not objects and they're not extended in space... — Bartricks
The traffic code of NSW is extended in space, having "a boundary between the space it occupies and the space it doesn't", just like you said. Hence, by your definition it is a material thing.if something is extended in space, then there will be a boundary between the space it occupies and the space it doesn't. — Bartricks
The One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is extended in space - it's in Italy, Canada, Brazil - how odd that you should deny this. — Banno
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