I just discovered these notes in my files. Long ago I was a follower of Lao Tzu. I even took Witter Bynner to war with me. But I have forgotten most of it.
Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you.
A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: "we did it ourselves".
Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.
Lao Tzu
When the natural goodness of man fails, written codes of morality will flourish, When written codes of morality fail, Laws and Lawyers will fourish.
Here he is unknowingly describing the advent of the agricultural revolution 10,000 years age.
The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness.

If the Great Way perishes there will morality and duty. When cleverness and knowledge arise great lies will flourish. When relatives fall out with one another there will be filial duty and love. When states are in confusion there will be faithful servants.
Lao Tzu
When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.
Lao Tzu
Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained. Be honest to those who are honest, and be also honest to those who are not honest. Thus honesty is attained.
Lao Tzu. When a nation is filled with strife, then do patriots flourish.
Lao Tzu
To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
Lao Tzu
The power of intuitive understanding will protect you from harm until the end of your days. (Particularly If you learn to integrate intuition and logic into the conscious mind which I do frequently as an artist.)
Lao Tzu
Notice his back handed slap at gods.
I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.
Lao Tzu
He who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

Religious and atheist thinking are totally and easily compatible as is witnessed by the "atheist" religions, Taoism and Confucianism and Buddhism

When the natural goodness of man fails, written codes of morality will flourish, When written codes of morality fail, Laws and Lawyers will flourish. — Ken Edwards

As it is represented in the text, none of those outcomes are necessary. Observing the progression is to suggest another movement is possible.

Otherwise, why bother? Who wants the inevitability of their futility described in excruciating detail?

Yes, I do find approaches such as Taoism more easy to take on board, but I do find my views hop around from one view to another, which is why I gravitate towards comparative religion. Really, I am constantly thinking up more and more questions. Perhaps I have philosophy disease.

Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you. Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.
Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.
Lao Tzu
The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness.
If the Great Way perishes there will morality and duty. When cleverness and knowledge arise great lies will flourish. When relatives fall out with one another there will be filial duty and love. When states are in confusion there will be faithful servants.
When the natural goodness of man fails, written codes of morality will flourish, When written codes of morality fail, Laws and Lawyers will fourish.
Lao Tzu
When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.
Lao Tzu
Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained. Be honest to those who are honest, and be also honest to those who are not honest. Thus honesty is attained.
Lao Tzu When a nation is filled with strife, then do patriots flourish.
Lao Tzu
To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
Lao Tzu
The power of intuitive understanding will protect you from harm until the end of your days. (Particulary if you are able to integrate intuition and logic in the conscious mind as I do routinely as an artist.)
Lao Tzu
I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.
Lao Tzu
He who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

Sure there is science behind technology, but when the science is not known it doesn't matter. It matters a lot when the science is known. That is when we step away from superstition and realize our power to overcome evil. — Athena

I suppose it's about different levels of experimental rigor. The birth of technology was driven by experimentation yes but these experiments were crude and simply consisted of feeling less tired when rolling something (wheel) than when sliding it (more friction), a similar argument can be made for other ancient technologies that existed before science became a formal discipline. On the other hand science, after it took its present form whenever that was, has as an absolute requirement that experiments meet a certain set of criteria that are designed to not only prove a point but also to reveal the principles of the phenomenon being studied.

Thank you for inputting the quotes from Lao Tzu. I definitely didn't set up this thread for it to be one to be dominated by Christian thought. So, when I had a long quote from the Bible, about "the beast and 666' late at night I felt really unnerved. At a couple of points in my life this aspect of religious thinking made me begin to get unwell mentally. Even now, I do get a bit 'wobbly' if people start to preach to me.

I suppose that by starting this thread I was likely to get a certain amount of 'preaching'. Some of the responses have been good, but I am a bit disappointed that there has been less constructive dialogue. Apart from brief discussion about Buddhism, there has been little discussion about other religions. I am personally extremely interested in other views, ranging from Hinduism to Jainism. It could be that people on the forum do see religion mainly about the big divide between believing in God or not, in the conventional way. Or, it could be that people who fall outside of this, just avoid the religious threads. I was not looking for some kind of watered down discussion but some more diverse and independent thinking.

In regards to Spinoza, I find the consideration of his work as a conversation with Maimonides to be illuminating. Spinoza was expelled from the Jewish community but he did not expel them from his. He was also keen in his opposition to the religious wars raging amongst his Christian contemporaries. — Valentinus

:up:

I am takig a big risk here in asserting: "There is no such thing as: "A science that is not known."
All science exists inside human brains and inside human writings and exist in no other place in the known universe.

I am asking a religeous question here that maybe can not be answered precisely. Maybe it can best be answered by stating opinions.
Is religeon primarily concerned with human Morals? Or primarily with religeous Ritual? Or primarily concened with advice about mundane concerns of day to day living? Or primarily concerned with group activities such as Bingo games or picnics? Or economics? Or all of the above in equal amounts?

Is religeon primarily concerned with human Morals? Or primarily with religeous Ritual? Or primarily concened with advice about mundane concerns of day to day living? Or primarily concerned with group activities such as Bingo games or picnics? Or economics? Or all of the above in equal amounts? — Ken Edwards

It’s primary purpose is to bind groups in common values and teleology. It’s all about the tribe and all other concerns are secondary. This is why religious folk aren’t uncommonly virtuous, or particularly good and offering mundane advice, but have a good turnout at bingo night.

I suppose that by starting this thread I was likely to get a certain amount of 'preaching'. Some of the responses have been good, but I am a bit disappointed that there has been less constructive dialogue. Apart from brief discussion about Buddhism, there has been little discussion about other religions. I am personally extremely interested in other views, ranging from Hinduism to Jainism. It could be that people on the forum do see religion mainly about the big divide between believing in God or not, in the conventional way. Or, it could be that people who fall outside of this, just avoid the religious threads. I was not looking for some kind of watered down discussion but some more diverse and independent thinking. — Jack Cummins

What if we are all crewmen on the Ship of Fools from many paths who have taken over the ship? They argue over who knows the way home. They are all equal in ignorance at the exoteric level. Does anyone from any authentic path initiated by a conscious source know the way home? Who on the ship recognizes the North Star so knows the way home. Are their such people and will they be killed for questioning the mutineers?

Plato's Ship of Fools
In the Republic, book vi, Plato describes the following scene:

"Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. The sailors are quarreling with one another about the steering --every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer, though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard, and having first chained up the noble captain's senses with drink or some narcotic drug, they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain's hands into their own whether by force or persuasion, they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer's art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?" [Translated by Benjamin Jowett]

Thank you for inputting the quotes from Lao Tzu. I definitely didn't set up this thread for it to be one to be dominated by Christian thought. So, when I had a long quote from the Bible, about "the beast and 666' late at night I felt really unnerved. At a couple of points in my life this aspect of religious thinking made me begin to get unwell mentally. Even now, I do get a bit 'wobbly' if people start to preach to me.

I suppose that by starting this thread I was likely to get a certain amount of 'preaching'. Some of the responses have been good, but I am a bit disappointed that there has been less constructive dialogue. Apart from brief discussion about Buddhism, there has been little discussion about other religions. I am personally extremely interested in other views, ranging from Hinduism to Jainism. It could be that people on the forum do see religion mainly about the big divide between believing in God or not, in the conventional way. Or, it could be that people who fall outside of this, just avoid the religious threads. I was not looking for some kind of watered down discussion but some more diverse and independent thinking. — Jack Cummins

The Advaita Vedenta school is a non-dualist school of Indian thought that is very interesting. "Darshanas" means philosophy in India, while "Jnana" means knowledge gained through philosophy.

Some in Hinduism speak of the nirguna God, which has 3 attributes: sat (existence), chit (consciousness), and ananda (bliss). We are to merge with him. My reading of Buddhist theology says only ananda is real and that we must merge with bliss. However I got in trouble earlier for talking about Buddhism and "lack of substance", so..

The Hinduism that arose about the time of Jesus speaks of the saguna of God, the many infinite attributes. Everything from love-making to cooking is "like unto God", or really his essense (in a sense)

One last point:
The great Persian Sufi Mansur al-Hallaj was killed in Baghdad in 922 for uttering "I am the Truth" and since truth was one of the 99 names of God in Islam they took him to mean he thought he was God. Interestingly, Jesus may have been speaking merely about his immanent divinity as well, not that he was the Son of God in the way Christians understand that

I do think that we are probably like a load of crewmembers on a ship of fools. I prefer you quoting Plato to the Bible. I am rather sensitive about ideas such as the beast and 666. This probably goes back to groups of evangelicals who used to try to tell me that the music I was listening to was the work they the devil etc. Even before that, as an early teenager I got in such a state over the passage in the Bible over the unpardonable sin, which is the mysterious sin of 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. One of the reasons I am such a fan of Jung is because I discovered through reading his autobiography when I was in sixth form that he worried that this. Later, I read that Kierkergaard worried about it too.

Religion, especially Christianity, can create such fear and I have known people, including friends, who have experiences religious psychosis. I have come across people who have believed they were the Antichrist. I am glad that I never developed that delusion. However, I do have a certain sensitivity like I felt a bit anxious when I came to write my number 666 post on this forum, and fortunately it wasn't about anything particularly contentious.

I am not really opposed to Christianity at all, just find it conjures up so much fear, but I feel so really stressed if I go into an old church. The new ones don't seem so bad, because so much light seems to come through the windows whereas I get such a sense of the uncanny in the old ones. One could say that perhaps I should not have written a thread about religion if I have such a sense of fear, but I do think that we do not to face our fears. But I did get worked up when I got the quote about the beast of revelation.

Aside from issues about religion, in other threads there is quite a lot of thinking that we are coming to the end of a cycle, if not the end of civilisation. However, I do think that the fundamentalist Christians are too literalistic in their interpretation of the Bible. I am genuinely sympathetic to most belief systems, including atheism, because it is a tenable form of thinking. But, you are right to say that we are like crew on a ship of fools and I realise that you are just someone finding your way as well, so I am not annoyed with you, and I am interested in Simone Weil's ideas.

It is interesting to see some input on Hindu and Buddhist ideas. I am saying that not just from my own issues but also thinking about how this reads when people log into the thread, especially if someone is new to the forum. My aim with the thread is not just to sort out my own concerns but for the thread to be the most possible open minded and broad discussion, taking in diverse approaches. I can't believe that I am the only person on the forum who has struggled with worries about religion because there is so much overlap between religion and philosophy questions.

The aspect of Hinduism you have presented is new to me because I have only read about the Theravada school of it, as there are so many traditions. I have read some books on Buddhism, but once again there are many schools, and so much written about it. Sufism is the area of Islam that interests me and I would like to read on it. The main writer who I have read on the comparative religion is Ninian Smart.

I do believe that you are right in saying that Jesus was speaking about his imminent divinity, and I don't think that he was saying that he was the Son of God, as the only one son.

I think that you are right to speak of the social dimension to religion. This can be about rituals and community life. The rituals around baptism, marriage and funerals play such importance for so many people. I also know that for many Hindus the marriage ceremony is not just a day but much longer, perhaps up to a fortnight. Rituals are such a major part of life for people and often people who would not go to church ordinarily go for these. I once went to a funeral for someone who did not have any religious beliefs. It took place in a church, but without any prayers at all and it seemed so stark.

So many people do rely on church for social life. I went to the youth club at my church a few times, but I didn't really enjoy it. A lot of people even go to church events to find potential marriage partners. It is such a feature of community life and one which is unavailable to people currently. At present, in England, churches can open but there are restrictions on the numbers. A lot of people are attending church services by Zoom, and whoever would have imagined virtual reality church services.

Is religeon primarily concerned with human Morals? Or primarily with religeous Ritual? Or primarily concened with advice about mundane concerns of day to day living? Or primarily concerned with group activities such as Bingo games or picnics? Or economics? Or all of the above in equal amounts? — Ken Edwards

Unanswerable questions. Depends on the religion, the country, the culture, the individual.

Rene Gerard made the point that violence is as much connected to the religious impulse as to anything else. Modern society does not like to speak of violence much, but there is violence in all of us. Religion can control it, or abate it, depending on the situation. People who otherwise wouldn't be violent sometimes do violence under the influence of religion.

Just some thoughts I had

Of course, it is true that all kinds are wars have been fought in the name of religion. We have the whole history of fighting for Christendom. As well as that, we have the terrorism, such as the tension and Catholicism and Protestantism in Ireland. There has been the whole tension between the Christian dominated countries and the Islamic nations, although that may have been about oil too. As well, we have the Islamic terrorists and the war against that. One could go on and on.

We could say that violence and war is a problem for human beings generally, but certainly we can see that religion has given rise to it in many ways. However, this is in contradictions to the ideas of the founders, such as Jesus's message of turning the other cheek. There is also the contrasting approach, of non violent protest, as expressed by Mahatma Gandhi.

I am not really opposed to Christianity at all, just find it conjures up so much fear, but I feel so really stressed if I go into an old church. — Jack Cummins

Don't forget that many forms of Christianity do not accept the idea of a devil or demons or any of the cartoon violence in Revelation. For many Christian theologians the Bible is allegorical and not to be taken literally under any circumstances.

Hi Athena. We have been discussing myths but, unless I missed it We have not been looking at specific myths. When I grew up we had several myths for children, mostly for entertainment but sometimes acting as warnings. Godilocks and the 3 bears I would say is entertainment but the boy who cried Wolf was definitely a warning.
But what about current children's myths? Do any exist in competition with TV? A modern child hearing of Peter and the wolf would think: Why weren't the parent in jail for child neglect?
Do you personally know any myths? — Ken Edwards

Back in the day, we read children the classic stories which we also call moral stories and folk tales, and then we asked "What is the moral of that story". The answer would be a cause and effect. The Little Red Hen didn't share her bread because on one would share in the work. The Fox didn't get the grapes because he gave up and comforted himself by saying the grapes were probably sour anyway. The Little that Could made it over the hill because he didn't give up and kept encouraging himself by saying "I think I can. I think I can." I deeply regret this did not remain part of education with parents understanding the importance of reading these stories to their children, but I have seen indication of education picking them up again.

Golden Books for children added to these stories with modern tales and popular characters. However, when Random House bought Golden Books in 1998 I think they lost their focus on virtues with a focus on money. Hum, if I had the money for travel and research, I would enjoy doing a book about how money has corrupted the forces of morality we once had. This being the result of organizations based on values, being bought up for by people only interested in profits.

Among other things, this means loosing our culture. For sure cultural changes were necessary but the complete loss of our culture could lead to the fall of our civilization?

I want to pick up what you said of other religions and philosophies such as Confucius and Hinduism. Eastern philosophy/religion begin with a belief in "The Basic Goodness of Man" but it seems to me they also assert that we need to work on letting go of our lower selves and developing our higher selves. That is, unlike Christians believing we must be saved by a supernatural power, our development is a matter of our own effort. I seriously do not believe if we are racist bigots here, we will not also be racist bigots when we cross over. Like if Christians think we should not be racist and bigots, here and now is when to correct the problem and clearly being saved by Jesus has not worked the miracle that needs to happen.

Really, I prefer to see most people the Bible as allegory. Generally, I do see 'The Book of Revelation' in that way, but I was brought up to see it more literally. However, I have moments where I slip into thinking about the whole Biblical end times. However, I do believe that there have been many points in history when people have thought it previously. I do believe that the early Christians thought it was within their sights. But the 'Book of Revelation' makes so much more sense as a symbolic prophecy rather than as a literal one.

I would enjoy doing a book about how money has corrupted the forces of morality we once had. This being the result of organizations based on values, being bought up for by people only interested in profits. — Athena

I think many books have been done on this subject already. Das Kapital being one of the more famous examples. I think this this is one of the great recurring tropes in popular culture too.

Don't forget that many forms of Christianity do not accept the idea of a devil or demons or any of the cartoon violence in Revelation. For many Christian theologians the Bible is allegorical and not to be taken literally under any circumstances. — Tom Storm

What are the names of those theologians, so I can look them up?

As for revelation being allegorical, the allegory of the beast is one of my favorites! Wasn't Rome dominated by military men when that was written? The economy of Rome came to depend on its ability to conquer people who had the resources Rome needed, and that made the taxing citizens to pay for the military essential, and military men were able to take over the rule of Rome. To me, that is the beast, and the reality of the US. Our consumer economy is worshipping the wrong the God and yet Christians seem to strongly support this? It is all rather confusing to me.

That is, unlike Christians believing we must be saved by a supernatural power, our development is a matter of our own effort. — Athena

Many criticisms of Christians are framed as putting too much responsibility upon individuals for their choices. Your description does not account for the thought in the City of God or the Imitation of Christ.

What are the names of those theologians, so I can look them up? — Athena

Most theologians, priests and preachers I have met hold this view.

For some famous examples of Christian thinkers, in chronological order

Paul Tillich
Thomas Merton
Bishop Shelby Spong
David Bentley Hart

Das Kapital is not exactly what I in mind. I am an old-fashioned female and my concern is much cultural than political. If it had been Dr. Seuss's goal to profit from writing I don't think he could written a book. He wrote because he had something to say and wanted use language to help children learn to read. Profiteers using his name to sell books that are not Dr. Suess's books is wrong to me, Random house buying Golden Books is wrong to me. What the managers of the Hersey town have done to name and the town is wrong to me. My book would be about people with values succeeding and people taking a ride on their success and destroying the geese that lay the golden eggs.

Thank you. And the Church was not all wrong when it objected to putting the Bible in the people's language and being interrupted by laypeople.

My book would be about people with values succeeding and people taking a ride on their success and destroying the geese that lay the golden eggs. — Athena

This idea is much in the public discourse already. Even just those people who write interminable complaints about Disney and its vacuuming up and vandalism of the Star Wars franchise. The idea that commercial forces hijack a good idea and destroy it in their rapacious quest to make money is a commonplace. But if you can do something brand new or unexpected with it, great.