Freemasonry may have played a role in the separation between church and state. However, that separation ought to be viewed as a revolt against the authority of the church, therefore the organization would necessarily have been secret to avoid the wrath of authority. Documenting such a history would be impossible.

If that was the role of freemasonry, then it is historic, and it would not hold influence in modern society.

Freemasonry may have played a role in the separation between church and state. — Metaphysician Undercover

Absolutely. They played an important role against the Church as a system of fight powers. But in this context we also have protestantism and Henry VIII opposing against the Church/Clergy.
But we both agree here that one of the doubtful things about masonry is being that secret. This is the main reason why is full of legends and not analysis or scientific theories.

Masonry — javi2541997

Well, the original "Freemasonry" was composed of the elite of the Jewish temples of the province of "Judea" of the Roman Empire during the Classical Age. Its secrets are generically understood - as there are not many reliable records on the group's internal knowledge - as being of architecture, which were considered as divine gifts by the Romans - it is hypothesized that the "Walls of Theodosius" of Constantinople - which defended the city for more than 1,000 years - was designed and built by the Freemasons themselves -.

However, it must be taken into account that contemporary Freemasonry is the culmination of more than 1,000 years of Christianity, together with the 18th century Enlightenment thoughts, and almost nothing of the original one.

I would conclude that the secrets and specificities of Freemasonry have been so diluted for so long and for so many different cultures, that it is impossible to truly know its dogmas and its own internal culture, as much as the current Hermeticism.

I would conclude that the secrets and specificities of Freemasonry have been so diluted for so long and for so many different cultures, that it is impossible to truly know its dogmas and its own internal culture — Gus Lamarch

This was one of the mistakes from the cultures and nations over the years. I guess they misunderstood the way of acting from the masonry. It was just another cult but it is plagued of overrated legends or myths that are not even proven.
You put the example of Wall of Theodosius. I am full agree with you that probably masons were somehow part of it. But I guess they were part of barely most of historical moments in the civilization. I put another example: when Spain conquered the Peninsula and kicked off the jews and Muslims. It is known that probably masonry was part of the "strategy" or somehow had an important role.

Nevertheless, this is organisation is so secret that we cannot clearly put historical information on the table and then prove it. This is why is full of truths and myths/legends.

Nevertheless, this is organisation is so secret that we cannot clearly put historical information on the table and then prove it. This is why is full of truths and myths/legends. — javi2541997

It is very likely that nothing that makes up contemporary Masonry is a legacy of the original.

As I said, and you reiterated, this group no longer has traditions, values and even secrets that have depth and historical substance.

If we ask a current Freemason why his order acts the way it does, it is with certainty that I affirm:

"- He would know nothing to answer".

There is also the question of many other secret societies and movements, such as the Templars, the Rosucrucians and the Cathars. I think that these may have been more esoteric than the Freemasons, and from what I have read the Freemasons had some initial connections with building.

It was just another cult... — javi2541997

Freemasonry is alive and well... not 'was'... a cult? I'm not so inclined to say that.

Sorry. I did not explain myself accurately. I referred them as a “cult” due to its secrets. Probably the correct word is society/fraternity.

Although Masons claim Freemasonry exists since ancient Egypt is there any record or mention to them in antiquity or the Middle Ages?

Sure. Here you have an interesting link related of how supposedly masons contributed to the build of cathedrals back in the Middle Ages: http://pedro-mundodebabel.blogspot.com/2014/12/pasajes-de-la-historia-xviii-el-origen.html

It is in Spanish but I guess you can change it in English or whatever language.

Thank you. I was aware that Freemasonry evolved from the medieval masons guilds but tend to look at them as different things. The oldest lodge known according to Wikipedia dates from the 16th Century. Don't know about Spain but at least in Portugal since the foundation of the kingdom until the expelling the Jews dominated and even had the monopoly of most skilled works and crafts including being the tax collectors and managing the royal treasury and, although being fairly ignorant on this issue, remember reading there was some grudge from the Christian side at the end of the MA. However even if craft guilds were involved in the actions against the Jews it is not clear this can be attributed to the Freemasonry as it is known today.

The oldest lodge known according to Wikipedia dates from the 16th Century — Nada

Yes because this was the century where it is supposed that they decided organised them as a society. But I guess the meaning of “masonry” has a large recording since ancient times probably just to another secret organisation who wanted fight or threaten the State/Church.

However even if craft guilds were involved in the actions against the Jews it is not clear this can be attributed to the Freemasonry as it is known today. — Nada

It is very hard to attribute something to masonry in terms of historic impact. We all know that George Washington was a mason because he literally joined in the Virginia group and confessed it in his memorials. Also it looked like he was important inside the secret organisation itself. Nevertheless, we do not have the enough documents to prove how important was the masonry in the American independence.
They prefer keep it secret.

Depends, we know the medieval society was an aristocratic one and the guilds were made of professional classes in which the nobility would not be involved. As well paid as masons may have been it is difficult to understand how could they have the power and influence Freemasonry latter aquired.

I much prefer the Odd Fellows, as the name of their society seems more honest and appropriate. I don't know much about the history of such organizations prior to the 18th century. I suspect modern Freemasons are mostly concerned about lining each others' pockets (which it's said they do quite well), but for some reason feel it necessary to do so by first donning silly articles of clothing and engaging in absurd rituals they think are centuries old. From what I hear, they may have borrowed some symbols of Hermeticism. Some have speculated even that the little we know of the cult of Mithras, with its seven degrees of initiation into its mysteries, may have inspired them or speculation regarding the nature of the Illuminati, and a case is made that the cult of Mithras was more like a social club than a religion--being limited to men, I suppose some of us feel it must be similar to the male fraternal organizations of more recent times with their curious ceremonies and hierarchies.

Organizations that kept secret their rituals and teachings may appear strange today under the influence of the bias created by Christianity but they were common in antiquity and doesn't seem to be any evidence they had any particular negative influence on society, by the contrary.

We are agree in the point of the impact of masonry back in the past. Probably they have different names or meaning but it looks like they always been there. As much as I hare the comment of Ciceronianus about symbolism in Hermeticism, I going to put two different interesting views of important symbols that are too much related to masonry. Also, as Nada said, of course, masonry doesn't have to be a negative statement in the bases of society.

Example 1. United States Dollar. (1 $). If you check the emblem in the pyramid it says: nevus ordo seclorum This literally means "new order established". It is interesting to point out how a clearly meaning from masonry is in the most famous currency of the world... Right?
[img]http://


Example 2. XIXth century was one of the toughest for Spain and Spanish institutions. The lost of colonies, one republic and zero perspective on the horizon. Nevertheless, the State gave their best and did not disappeared or whatever even worse to Spain and its citizens. Well, if you check it out this picture reflects all the Spanish governments during an important period (1868 - 1874) when we had two kings and one Republic in just six years. All the politicians and militates you see are from freemasonry called in Spain as "Gran Oriente de España" formally established in 1899.
[img]http://

There is no doubt that many well positioned people in many countries, in particular in politics, are known Freemasons. But regarding masonry always existing where is the evidence it predates the 16th Century? Having likely developed from a medieval guild doesn't mean it is the same thing as the original guild itself whether in scope, doctrin or modus operandi. One thing is to keep some rituals and teachings secret the other is to keep the existence of an institution a secret. Ancient cults were pretty good with the first but as for the second people need to gather somewhere, sooner or latter someone will notice and mention or some disfranchised member will publicly criticize it.

One of the most important points inside masonry is keeping it secret as much as they can do it. This ks the main reason we have less documents that could prove their existence as institution before XVIth century as you propose.
Nevertheless I have some evidences that can prove their existence since the Ancient Times.

Example 1. Roman Empire. Also called roma collegia it is written in de Digesto. One of the most important Roman laws ever made. Look carefully the picture. You will see all masonry symbolism we speak previously.
[img]http://

Example 2. The so called masonry pyramid here you can see that literally it is represented all social institutions along history and civilisations. It is true is free interpretive. But I think it is quite clear how indirectly they represent how always been there administrating the States from the shadows.
[img]http://

If the Freemasonry existed in Roman times and had the same scope as today one would assume that it would be involved for instance in restoring the Roman republic, one would also assume that with a network of informers and people in charge of knowing what was going on Roman emperors would learn about its existence.

Interesting point of view. But remember that masonry never wanted get involved into politics. They just stayed there. I cannot prove what was the real role of masons in the decadence of Roman Empire because sadly we do not have enough facts to speak about it. I am just trying to put evidence about their existence not how important they could be.
Also, this strange topic is so free interpreted. So my guess is masonry back then was important but they just wanted to survive despite the circumstances of society. Probably they did not do nothing to help the empire because they already knew it wasn't profitable at all.

Sure. Here you have an interesting link related of how supposedly masons contributed to the build of cathedrals back in the Middle Ages: http://pedro-mundodebabel.blogspot.com/2014/12/pasajes-de-la-historia-xviii-el-origen.html — javi2541997

As builders, (engineers), the masons preserved and maintained all the mathematical principles which are the secrets to the universe. The Church took mathematical principles for granted, as given by God, and allowed the masons providence over them. So there was a fundamental division between the roles of the Church who saw the need to maintain the purity of, and defend against corruption of moral principles, while the masons received the task of maintaining the purity of mathematical principles.

So we have distinctly divergent subjects of importance here, a division which is fundamental to the structure called the division of labour. But the Church needed to be the highest in the hierarchy, to maintain the absolute authority of God, and this meant that the mathematical principles guarded by the masons could not change, or else the "given by God" status is challenged, along with the authority of the Church, which relied on that relationship with God. Of course this questioning of authority did happen with the Copernican revolution. If you read Plato's "Republic" he foresees the downfall of the State as a change in numbering system.

Example 1. United States Dollar. (1 $). If you check the emblem in the pyramid it says: nevus ordo seclorum This literally means "new order established". It is interesting to point out how a clearly meaning from masonry is in the most famous currency of the world... Right? — javi2541997

What does the pyramid with an eye on top of it signify?

Pyramid: The metaphoric representation of the pillars inside the State. Also as we know today as pyramid class where it can be shown all of us in different levels. Nevertheless, it is supposed that the masonry doesn't have to be there but are the "engineers" or "architects" of the new system established in the new world. For this reason the emblem says Novus ordo seclorum

Eye: It is a religious representation. It is called the Eye of Providence and it means the "eye which can see everything and everyone all the time" I guess it is quite related to God and its omnipresent power. Important fact to say here that this exactly eye can be seen in another masonry representation about clocks/time or just a simply triangle.

For example. In this image you can see the Eye is upon all the society pillars, world, law, ethics, etc... And a brief representation of quite the principles of all the States.
[img]http://