He spent so much time in bed and felt flat and without any meaning. This seems to me to be the ultimate expression of nihilism. — Jack Cummins

Depression can not be labeled by a philosophical position. It seems to me that being a nihilist could be very freeing; and I can well envision an ecstatic nihilist. Your friend wasn't depressed because he was a nihilist. He was depressed, and coincidentally he may or may not have been a nihilist, or a Presbyterian, or a Druid, or a logical positivist, or a Marxist, Karl or Groucho. None of those intellectual orientations would bear upon a person's depression, which is something else entirely.

Yes, I agree that nihilism and depression are rather different, although in some cases there can be an overlap. Nihilism is a way of seeing the world and I have had points of that and it is distinct from clinical depression. However, on a couple of occasions I dwelled on the absence of meaning to the point where I felt depressed. The sense in which I say that I felt depressed was one in the I felt unable to do my usual daily activities.
That is how I consider depression to be and it is as if the world loses its brightness and colour.

It is interesting that you say that you believe that whether your nihilism will come again will depend on stimulus and your own behaviour because that is more how I feel about potential depression than nihilism. However, each person's personal perspective is a bit different. Nihilism for me is more about a philosophy of life, whereas depression is my mood related to events, mainly those in my own life. However, I do see it as a whole blurry spectrum and that is why I brought nihilism into a discussion about therapy.

I do agree that it is possible to be ecstatic as a nihilist. However, I believe that it is complicated because for some the nihilism leads to suicidal despair. Some people with despair over lack of meaning in life do present to mental health services, looking for possible interventions. We could ask to what extent is despair a mental health problem?

Yes. I think after my personal experience I defend it depends a lot of circumstances. We are agree that nihilism and depression are completely different but in some cases depression somehow can drive you to nihilist ideas.
It will depend in the stimulus because I guess when you are having an active life (work, studies, friends, etc...) it is quite difficult to experience nihilism. I was the opposite. I remember wasting a lot of time of worth living in my nihilism era. When I change my mind and discovering other motivations, nihilism started being something from the "past"
It is literally a blurry spectrum as you said. Because do not know how "randomly" appears and you do not know how to avoid it. Also, in the way of living a nihilist life you can hurt others when they see you quite "absort" from reality.
Nevertheless, I still have the door open because I cannot confirm I will never live it again. I hope the next time as you explained, it would be more philosophical rather than depend on circumstances (sadness, depression, low motivation) that provoked the past experience.

I do agree that it is possible to be ecstatic as a nihilist. However, I believe that it is complicated because for some the nihilism leads to suicidal despair. Some people with despair over lack of meaning in life do present to mental health services, looking for possible interventions. We could ask to what extent is despair a mental health problem? — Jack Cummins

When you just observe the beauty of the latest week's beautiful scandinavian sunrises and sunsets, you get pretty ecstatic in the progress. Or if you listen to certain parts of "Down Down" with Quo. What does saving the world really add?

You mention the ecstatic and I do get states of that too, but I do know some people who experience continual flatness. They are always miserable. I often get euphoric about music and sometimes music about despair enables me to get high, as if it is transmitted.

Yesterday, I had a really strange experience. I had been feeling run down, with a slight sore throat and lack of appetite, but not so bad that I had to stay in bed. My mood was about average and, then, for no apparent reason, I felt this intense warm energy pulsating through my body and a sense of euphoria which lasted for a couple of hours, until I fell asleep. The heat sensation was a strange one because, normally, I don't like being hot, especially in bed. However, this almost felt like some kundalini experience of awakening.

Nihilism is a word used in many ways. Bottom line any world view that supports or triggers depression - whether it be Christianity or nihilism - still requires intervention. Plenty of suggestions on mental health support websites for this.

Lots of younger men tend to go through periods of bleakness it seems. Some like to call this nihilism, perhaps it sounds less banal.

Existentialism and nihilism was very popular when I was young. Most of us found the proposition of nihilism a cheerful alternative to the false values of a religion or an off the rack suburban worldview. Nihilism meant being free to invent yourself as much as you felt able to.

Only one person I knew developed suicidal despair and a heroin addiction to manage it. He had a mental health issue and fortunately with treatment he recovered, but it took close to a decade.

Perhaps there are hard and soft nihilists. The hard nihilist says that 'nothing matters', not even their own life and, perhaps, this results in them withering and possibly dying. I suppose this has more to do brain chemistry and/or life circumstances than philosophical reflection.

The soft nihilist says there are no transcendent values, no external source of meaning, nothing. I am free to invent myself. This could be considered exciting.

PTSD is a very interesting area in relation to therapy because often people who have this do not get a full response to treatment by medication. They often seek therapy because they need help processing their experience. If people have been in the army they may get diagnosed with PTSD, however, many people who have complex traumatic history get given the label of borderline personality disorder. Have you come across this approach to trauma in the labelling by some professionals?

Yes, all the personality disorders are strongly associated with post trauma behaviour and dissociative states. More commonly borderline for females; anti-social PD for males. Yep, trauma needs psychosocial support, talking and, perhaps, medication - depending on the complexity of the trauma. It takes time and resources to overcome.

I believe that it is not possible to predict future states of mind, because sometimes it as if they arise out of nowhere, as well as life events being unpredictable. Certainly, that is my own experience. Perhaps, what we are able to do is to think about how depression and nihilism can be distinguished because disentangling the two can be difficult. I have come across people who find this so hard to do because they feel unable to articulate these experiences.

That's not the conclusion of the study cited. Even a cursory read shows that. — Isaac

You are absolutely correct. My enthusiasm for social and environmental influences on mental health got the better of me. But do you not think that prevention is even better than cure? Therapy can sometimes have the social function of making social problems into personal ones, in rather the way cholera treatments of old failed to address the sanitation problems of crowded living in cities, that led to the frequent epidemics. Clean water does not cure cholera, it merely prevents it.

Existentialism is on of the other feelings I remember experiencing it but not as hard as nihilism. I am agree in the point that the concept of nihilism can be used in different perspectives. Nevertheless I never had it in a religious perception because I always been atheist. So my nihilism period never came from a believing crisis of God.
As you said there are literally hard or soft nihilist. I mean as I said previously it dependes a lot od circumstances. I remember one of friend of mine who was experiencing nihilism said to me he was scared because nihilism could kill philosophy so he decided not getting further information about it.
When I was nihilist I remember waking up with lack of ambition and saying to myself "just another day until the end comes" but exactly in this difficult situation I started a new period that I keep in nowadays.

We are agree that nihilism and depression are completely different but in some cases depression somehow can drive you to nihilist ideas.
It will depend in the stimulus because I guess when you are having an active life (work, studies, friends, etc...) it is quite difficult to experience nihilism. I was the opposite. I remember wasting a lot of time of worth living in my nihilism era. When I change my mind and discovering other motivations, nihilism started being something from the "past" — javi2541997

It is certainly the basis of CBT as a treatment that depression can be treated by changing thinking, and through addressing negative thoughts, altering self defeating behaviour. In some ways it is the therapeutic application of philosophy.

Yes. Completely agree with you. It is impossible know what the future holds. Sometimes it can be even scaring. At least we already established that nihilism and depression are quite different experiences of living. For this reason I do believe nihilism can back or go many times during lifetime because is another philosophic way of living.
Nevertheless, depression is a hard pathology that has to be treated as quickly as possible. Because I guess it is even worse feeling sad rather than "not having a life purpose yet" how nihilism predict.

I think that it is important to treat depression, but it is getting so common for doctors to prescribe antidepressants routinely. I am not opposed to this but do think that sadness is becoming a bit too overmedicalised. Also, the other complicated is becoming overdependent, upon them and it can be difficult to come off them. I have seen people being treated by ECT as well. I was initially opposed to it, especially as some people experience memory loss due to it. However, it does seem to work wonders for some, especially elderly people. Generally, even doctors don't seem to know why and the way it works is a bit of a mystery. But I am not sure how ECT would address nihilism.

It definitely seems that women are more likely to get diagnosed with borderline whereas men with antisocial personality disorders. I have to say that I find the whole area of personality disorders. However, there is a lot of stigma and I think that the label PTSD would be preferable in many ways. When I worked in an acute admissions unit, a lot of the staff were very judgemental in their attitude and the term 'PD' was often used by some of the staff in a critical tone.

Therapy definitely seems to help with trauma, more especially the psychoanalytic kind because it seems to focus on the past. I have come across people with OCD, who also had a history of trauma and they were given behavior programs to address their OCD and felt that their trauma was ignored in the context of a CBT approach. One other therapy which people often say that they feel benefits trauma is art therapy. I began, but did not complete training in art psychotherapy. Unfortunately, in England and I don't know about in other countries, art therapies seem to be becoming marginalised and I think that this is because they are not seen as cost effective.

But I am not sure how ECT would address nihilism.

@Jack Cummins

I think ECT will not make an impact to a patient who is experiencing nihilism. I guess this happens due to nihilism is just a way of thinking not a mental illness. Therefore, as you commented, I am also opposed to this technique. It is old and I guess it not provides good results in the most of cases.
Yes these are the main reasons why we are agree that depression has to be taken care of immediately. Nevertheless, it is a complex situation where professional do not know how to act properly so they decide just to give antidepressants and see what happens. Let's remember here that this one of the biggest problems of modern societies. They tend to take a lot of antidepressants. I do not know what to say here because I am not a specialist but I guess it is not a good recommendation take chemical drugs so quickly despite the context of where we at. For example, as you said, elderly people or those with critical situation whom not have another path to find a solution.

Of course, another option available for some people is over the counter remedies. Doctors seem to have mixed opinions about this and some are opposed to it. I know that most psychiatrists caution against it but that is because it can interact with prescribed medications. In particular, one of the most popular remedies for depression, St John's Wort is dangerous if mixed with prescription antidepressants and other forms of medication.But, once when I went to one GP and said that I felt that I needed something for anxiety and sleeping, the doctor suggested that I went to a health shop and looked for something.

The best remedy I found was Passiflora and I do use it for sleeping frequently and it is virtually free from side-effects. I tried Valerian and it made me feel awful. If I buy any remedy I try to do a bit of research on it. I did try CBD oil capsules briefly and apart from being expensive, I didn't notice anything at all. I have also tried some Bach Flower Remedies and aromatherapy oils and wasn't sure whether they had any effect or not. But, I do think that trying methods to help us relax is worthwhile. However, I think That some people can get carried away with remedies and it can be dangerous if people don't know enough about what they are doing, and, for example, just take mega doses of vitamins which they probably don't need. But I am an experimenter and I even play self hypnosis CDs in bed sometimes.

The soft nihilist says there are no transcendent values, no external source of meaning, nothing. I am free to invent myself. This could be considered exciting. — Tom Storm

If one simlpy likes living, going to ones not-so-fantastic job, do whats needed in the family and then just chill, driving ones wife half crazy by saying no to all fany plans for the future, does that qualify a guy to the ranks of the soft nihilists?

When I worked in an acute admissions unit, a lot of the staff were very judgemental in their attitude and the term 'PD' was often used by some of the staff in a critical tone. — Jack Cummins

All over the world you find this. It is unfortunate, but a reflection of the difficulties of working with this cohort who are deemed almost untreatable (for the most part) and time consuming (as in needing years). This sets them up as 'difficult' in relation to the high volume, rapid turn around work of clinical services.

f one simlpy likes living, going to ones not-so-fantastic job, do whats needed in the family and then just chill, driving ones wife half crazy by saying no to all fany plans for the future, does that qualify a guy to the ranks of the soft nihilists? — Ansiktsburk

There is no reason why a nihilist needs to be living in miserable circumstances. In fact it could be argued if a person is living comfortably, and they accept nihilism, they are not merely reacting to their situation. They are actually choosing their ideas based on the merits of the idea. It would certainly be easier to be a nihilist whilst living in a Soviet gulag, say, in 1950. But do you really own a philosophical system brought on by circumstance? That's a thorny one.

I suppose its practical value lies on when it is useful for a person to 'get back on track' and not merely on whether a person is this or that. I do not have any experience in therapeutics so my opinion may be less valuable in this discussion, but I have observed how associating people and disorders lead to pigeonholing and inappropriate behaviour towards the pigeonholed. By associating people and disorders I don't mean diagnosing because that would require some professional intervention. I am talking about how everyday people would (unprofessionally) diagnose themselves and others with certain psychiatric disorders.

Say that Sam the child painter grieves the recent death of her parents. She dreams to become a world-renowned painter someday but right now she is sad and anxious about how she'll be faring in a world without her parents. She is suffering and it is natural that she is. Nobody has to treat her with therapy to remove her suffering; one can even argue that she has a right to this suffering. If Sam goes back to painting, uses her grief as motivation, and continues to strive for her goals in life even with the great suffering she feels, there is no need for therapy regardless of whether she's depressed or not (but I suspect that the official definition of depression has more to do with the weakening of the Will to Life and not necessarily on emotional suffering so maybe she's not depressed in this situation?). If I am correct, this is called sublimation. However, if the grief from the death of her parents render her unable to sleep, eat, and strive for excellence in her field, if her will to life becomes shoddy and continues to be so for an extended period, then this I think is when therapy gains value.

Speaking for personal experience, I had never gone for professional therapeutic help, but when the pandemic punched me in the face my world view was like this: "that striving for excellence both in my crafts and duties is ultimately meaningless so I should just lead a life that minimizes suffering. Striving to live, striving for excellence, it's the root of suffering so I should just stop it." I didn't seek help as I was satisfied with this philosophy but not long after I broke down in tears in front of my family when we were casually chitchatting during dinner. They didn't necessarily offer comfort, but they did provide me with words that I think really put me 'back on track.' I don't know if what I experiences classifies as any kind of professional therapy, but that experience had been very therapeutic for me.

In the instances I wrote above, I am pointing out to how people who experience suffering shouldn't be seen as needing of therapy, regardless of whether someone has psychiatric disorders or not, insofar as this suffering doesn't weaken one's Will to Life. Suffering and stressors are essential factors of human life and I don't think we should get rid of them if they're nothing detrimental to us.

Suffering and stressors are essential factors of human life and I don't think we should get rid of them if they're nothing detrimental to us. — Nagel

There are some approaches to therapy that don’t pathologize the client , but instead see their difficulties as arising out of the inevitable stucknesses and confusions that our explorations of life lead us into from
time to time. They see their role as a partnership with the client in a kind of combined philosophical and scientific investigation into creative ways the client might reconstrue their circumstances rather than seeing themselves merely as victim of those circumstances.

We could ask to what extent is despair a mental health problem? — Jack Cummins

Of course despair is a mental health problem. But a person experiencing despair need not be a nihilist nor vice versa. There are two distinct things: (1) How you feel; and (2) Crap you read. It's important not to confuse the two. Especially these days when the mainstream media is devoted to publishing crap that makes people feel bad, in order to drive clicks.

By the way the left wing Gestapo came for Dr. Seuss today, and I am in despair. The Cat in the Hat was my very first book, and I take this personally. "When they came for Mr. Potato Head I said nothing because I wasn't a starchy plant tuber ..."

https://apnews.com/article/dr-seuss-books-racist-images-d8ed18335c03319d72f443594c174513

I appreciate you bringing up different ways to help. It is a difficult topic to discuss because what could be more ripe for one's own bullshit than to talk about getting past it.

I have encountered a number of helpers and was helped by most of them blowing me off. Some portion of that was insight and some portion was force protection. If one embraces the self-knowledge model, expect unwanted results. We attract certain elements and learn or not from the arrival.

So, other people have problems I don't. But my problems are connected to theirs. The diagnostic approach is important. Is the model based upon relative levels of wellness or degrees of infection?

Both measures suck in critical ways.

many people who have complex traumatic history get given the label of borderline personality disorder. Have you come across this approach to trauma in the labelling by some professionals? — Jack Cummins

I don't do clinical psychology, but in what limited experience I have it's certainly something I've encountered more than once, so unless that's a coincidence my guess would be that it's quite prevalent, yes.

From what I understand, however, PTSD isn't the right diagnosis either, as CPTSD (Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is a separate condition with different neurological symptoms, different manifestations (which are partly responsible for the misdiagnoses) and therefore requires different therapeutic treatment. But I'm not an expert in this field.

I do agree.The people we turn to for help, including counsellors and therapists, can be the ones who give us the most difficulties. One of the problems can be when they think that they know what's best for us, or even understand us, better than we do ourselves. When I was in therapy, I had a therapist who said he could see what I was saying from a more objective point of view. Even though counsellors and therapists are not meant to give advice, I think that it is likely that many do.

Ultimately, the quest within therapy is to gain self knowledge. This may or may not happen. Sometimes, I find reading books on therapy and related topics better than going to see a therapist. I don't know if this is because it cuts out some of the stress of talking to the other person, although it this would seem to defeat the whole idea of needing to be listened to. Alternatively, I do wonder if it is because the writers of the books are more insightful and wise than the people who have have jobs as therapists. Generally, I find reading books by 'wise' writers one of the best forms of therapy personally, because it often gives me the best insights which I can reflect on in the process of acquiring self knowledge.

do you not think that prevention is even better than cure? — unenlightened

Yes, by a very large margin prevention is definitely better than the cure.

Therapy can sometimes have the social function of making social problems into personal ones, in rather the way cholera treatments of old failed to address the sanitation problems of crowded living in cities, that led to the frequent epidemics. — unenlightened

Can it? Is this just a suspicion of your, or do you have any evidence to support it?

There are two aspects to this -

Firstly, you're right. If we successfully treat those who are damaged by the way we've set up society, then it has the effect of making it appear as though that damage is remediable and so less concerning - but what's the alternative - let people suffer deliberately so that we force them to martyr themselves to the greater cause - that seems a little harsh?

Secondly, as the article says, depression is often a response, but it also causes behavioural changes which have an impact on the environment of others. It's possible (in fact I think it personally very likely) that the very reason why we're not making any improvements in the way our society functions is because of the damage living in it causes to our mental health. Addressing that damage may well be a step toward removing the conditions of its cause.

You are right to say that Complex Post Traumatic Disorder is a diagnosis in its own right, even though people who have other disorders may have a significant history of trauma. Part of the problem is the whole question of labels. They are useful for clinicians in thinking about treatment options but they can be stigmatising. That was the point I was really making about the label of personality disorder.

In thinking about this, one other area is the antipsychiatry movement. Writers such as RD Laing and Thomas Szaz looked at ways in which diagnostic labels can be used to pathologise misery and suffering. Such writers argued that it created a whole myth of mental illness. This movement went out of fashion, probably because it underplayed the reality of mental illness. However, the antipsychiatry movement does offer some insight for critical thinking about the way psychiatric labels are applied to individuals.

This movement went out of fashion, probably because it underplayed the reality of mental illness. However, the antipsychiatry movement does offer some insight for critical thinking about the way psychiatric labels are applied to individuals. — Jack Cummins

I think you've answered your own question there. The anti psychiatry movement had a point, and one which I don't think has really been taken up as much as it should, but it's their own fault their message didn't get across.

Mental illness is a real thing because there are people who's lives can be improved by treatment. We might just as well say that prosthetic limbs are stigmatising because they create a myth that we ought to have two limbs rather than one.

The problem is, with mental illness, it's too easy to diagnose an illness as the result of a failure to function according to some societal norm rather than a failure to function according the person's own preferences. That is gradually changing (although third world backwaters like America are very slow to progress). The solution is to press this change to happen faster. It's not to abandon the thousands of people who really do need psychiatric help just to make a political point.