- Stanford Encyclopedia of PhilosophyIf God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
As an atheist myself since the age of about 7, I simply do not understand how theists can trust in a God given this argument. It would be much appreciated if someone would clarify a general religious stand point for me, however I just do not see that whatever I am told could disprove this argument without contradicting religious beliefs in itself. — scientia de summis
'The problem of evil' is something that I have often pondered since it was first brought to my attention by Franz Liszt. — scientia de summis
Irenaeus stated that God made humans imperfect and is therefore partly responsible for the existence of evil. — Franz Liszt
As an atheist myself since the age of about 7, I simply do not understand how theists can trust in a God given this argument. — scientia de summis
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
Pay attention to that statement of, "God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good." From this single statement we can infer the psyche of God in viewing evil. In God's eyes, evil is not something absolute or immutable, it can be used to create something much better, albeit that evil is forever evil. There are many examples of this in action, either in the Catholic context or in the secular context. I will use only one example from each to illustrate my point.But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, 'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!
The point is - or maybe you're making it - what makes you think it's evil?so if God allows evil, — IP060903
What need does God have for enablers?The Catholic standpoint rests upon the idea that God allows evil because God can create a greater good from the evil. — IP060903
God wants? God is deficient in His or Her perfection such that he/she wants? That's beyond nonsensical.God wants people to love Her, but God also wants them to love Her purely and freely. — IP060903
Here I use the definition of "Evil is that which causes suffering." For God nothing causes suffering so in God's eyes evil is not real.The point is - or maybe you're making it - what makes you think it's evil? — tim wood
What does enabler mean?What need does God have for enablers? — tim wood
It is an expression which I use to respond the original poster. Of course God does not need or want anything because God is supreme and complete. In God everything is fulfilled. What we experience is simply the fulfilling of what is already fulfilled in God.God wants? God is deficient in His or Her perfection such that he/she wants? That's beyond nonsensical. — tim wood
True, I have seen the true nature of God and I acknowledge that there is no word that can accurately describe it. Even if you use a description of infinite length it is still impossible to explain or describe God. God is ineffable and incomprehensible. As such take care to understand that when I say "God wants" it is always some sort of metaphor or analogy. We understand only by analogy or by what God is not.The original thinkers were onto something when they decreed God ineffable and incomprehensible — tim wood
Then perhaps it is impossible or at least useless to talk about God at all. After all it will just be ideas about ideas which are also just ideas. Why don't you give your own propositions and clarify your thoughts to all of us? In the meantime I'll take a shower.For what about what? I take the substance of your remarks to be your ideas of your ideas about something that is also your idea. Zero contact with anything Godly there. — tim wood
Exactly! And that is all there ever is. And some of them seem good. But near as I can tell, it's peopleThen perhaps it is impossible or at least useless to talk about God at all. After all it will just be ideas about ideas which are also just ideas. — IP060903
As an atheist myself since the age of about 7, I simply do not understand how theists can trust in a God given this argument. It would be much appreciated if someone would clarify a general religious stand point for me, however I just do not see that whatever I am told could disprove this argument without contradicting religious beliefs in itself. — scientia de summis
Who said God was morally perfect? It is said that God has many human emotions as well including rage, jealously, compassion, etc. — Outlander
So why create us sick and then command us to be well? — 180 Proof
If God is perfect, why would his creation be imperfect?
As an atheist myself since the age of about 7, I simply do not understand how theists can trust in a God given this argument. It would be much appreciated if someone would clarify a general religious stand point for me, however I just do not see that whatever I am told could disprove this argument without contradicting religious beliefs in itself. — scientia de summis
I’m a sort of deist/atheist but the logical problem of evil is one I believe we should reject. I — Franz Liszt
Well I believe them a wholely accurate explanation of the problem of evil. — scientia de summis
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