Perhaps that sums up the situation. When I tell friends that I am spending time reading and writing on a philosophy forum, some of the responses suggest that such an interest is ridiculous. I have even had people suggest to me that philosophy is a complete waste of time and that practical matters, such as cleaning, are far more important, but I haven't given up the philosophical quest.

faith has wonderful psychological effects, but it can also be the worse source of evil we have. — Athena

No point in setting up faith as a magical word. It is just belief without evidence and works no differently than in the case of those people who thought Hitler was delivering them a magnificent world based on blood magic and race. Faith is the excuse people give for believing in something when they have no good reasons.

The Christians I know attempt to resolve every problem with prayers and they have complete faith that God/Jesus will answer their prayers. Obviously, if that is what one believes, God, will take care of everyone and all we need do is pray. Those who survive the hurricane, flood, landslide, or whatever, will be reassured God takes care of them — Athena

This is true but what of it? All religions commit atrocities and justify it with appeals to truth or faith. There is no necessary correlation between religious belief and moral behaviour. The history of our world is one of religions energetically basing their actions on choreographed bigotry and human rights violations. Hardly surprising when the only shaky evidence for God is in ancient books and outrageous claims.

need to stop freaking out about religion and start being more considerate of others, and you have my permission to remind me of that. — Athena

Don't be afraid to call out and oppose supernatural appeals to bigotry where they happen. It is best understood this way: 'I don't hate you, I hate your beliefs.'

This is true but what of it? All religions commit atrocities and justify it with appeals to truth or faith. There is no necessary correlation between religious belief and moral behaviour. The history of our world is one of religions energetically basing their actions on choreographed bigotry and human rights violations. Hardly surprising when the only shaky evidence for God is in ancient books and outrageous claims. — Tom Storm

What we do is an expression of what we are both individually and collectively. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. What we are is witnessed in all institutions including politics and religion at the exoteric level. Hypocrisy is the norm for the human condition at the exoteric level.

Humanity is capable of both the greatest compassion and the most horrible atrocities and rationalizes it with dualistic BS. Subjective morality is just the devolution of our capacity for objective conscience. So why be surprised when hypocrisy is the norm?

Plato explained the fallen human condition with the Chariot allegory. The poor driver has to deal with the dark horse representing our lower parts which pulls the driver and the white horse down to the earth. If true the question becomes how enable the driver to cure a psychologically sick horse so the chariot can function as it should. I would say he needs help.

Simone Weil wrote:

Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 417

That is why St. John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have received a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to these mysteries when they have no right at all to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which St. John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of such a purification.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 418

The lower or animal parts of the collective human essence wasn't made for God. Yet people try to teach Christianity from the perspective of our lower parts. If true, Atheism can serve as a purification when the supernatural part has not been awakened.

Can Christianity ever be taught by a person whose supernatural part has yet to awaken? Can a believer be misled by associating it with the lower parts of the soul where it doesn't belong. Atheism can purify what is wrong but who can support those whose supernatural part has begun to awaken and experiences the futility of dualism

When I tell friends that I am spending time reading and writing on a philosophy forum, some of the responses suggest that such an interest is ridiculous. I have even had people suggest to me that philosophy is a complete waste of time and that practical matters, such as cleaning, are far more important, but I haven't given up the philosophical quest. — Jack Cummins

Don't. You're obviously intelligent, articulate and interested. And philosophy doesn't require a 'practical outcome'.

At first he who invented any art whatever that went beyond the common perceptions of man was naturally admired by men, not only because there was something useful in the inventions, but because he was thought wise and superior to the rest. But as more arts were invented, and some were directed to the necessities of life, others to recreation, the inventors of the latter were naturally always regarded as wiser than the inventors of the former, because their branches of knowledge did not aim at utility. Hence when all such inventions were already established, the sciences which do not aim at giving pleasure or at the necessities of life were discovered, and first in the places where men first began to have leisure. This is why the mathematical arts were founded in Egypt; for there the priestly caste was allowed to be at leisure. — Aristotle

(981b)

[W]e do not seek it for the sake of any other advantage; but as the man is free, we say, who exists for his own sake and not for another's, so we pursue this as the only free science, for it alone exists for its own sake. — Aristotle

(982b)

The idea that philosophy or metaphysics OUGHT to have utilitarian outcomes, is the basis of the criticism of the way modernity 'instrumentalises' reason. That reason should always be employed for some pragmatic outcome is surely a prejudice of industrial society. Traditional metaphysics has a much broader or higher outcome in mind.

I think you ought to aspire to writing for publication in this area. It doesn't necessarily mean getting paid upfront for anything, but establishing an audience and a set of themes or topics. Someone who really landed a career as a philosopher was Jules Evans. Have a look at his work. I think he's brilliant. There are definitely opportunities in these areas of research. The online audience is now approaching 5 billion people, which is more people than there were in the world not long ago. Pick some key themes, something you feel is really vital, and read deeply into them, then find a medium, like Medium, to publish in. Preferably do some degree studies which support it.

BTW on that note, have you heard of the Temenos Academy? They're in the UK, if I lived there I would definitely check them out, with your interests it seems a natural fit https://www.temenosacademy.org/

'I don't hate you, I hate your beliefs.' — Tom Storm

Yeah the religious say something like that. 'Hate the sin but not the sinner'.

When I tell friends that I am spending time reading and writing on a philosophy forum, some of the responses suggest that such an interest is ridiculous. I have even had people suggest to me that philosophy is a complete waste of time and that practical matters, such as cleaning, are far more important, but I haven't given up the philosophical quest. — Jack Cummins

You can be part of a very important minority who will help to keep the great ideas alive in the world. It beats complaining about Trump IMO

Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses.
Simone Weil

Mechanical faith is what you were taught to believe. Emotional faith is belief based on fear which is why it is considered the blind faith of slavery — Nikolas

Not necessarily. I guess not all faiths drive you to slavery or being slave of your circumstances. When you have some beliefs and then, you believe in something particular (religion, atheism, politics, etc...) doesn’t make you slave because it is not painful to you. You just believe and do the best to pursuit happiness or whatever situation that is worthy is society. It is all about how we evaluate it.
But I guess the blind faith is not a negative aspect. Sometimes it can lead you to change something.
In our progress as a human we need: faith, beliefs and believe in.

For example: I have the faith we can distribute natural resources differently. We have beliefs on it. Then, we believe in the change and take some actions.

Not necessarily. I guess not all faiths drive you to slavery or being slave of your circumstances. When you have some beliefs and then, you believe in something particular (religion, atheism, politics, etc...) doesn’t make you slave because it is not painful to you. You just believe and do the best to pursuit happiness or whatever situation that is worthy is society. It is all about how we evaluate it.
But I guess the blind faith is not a negative aspect. Sometimes it can lead you to change something.
In our progress as a human we need: faith, beliefs and believe in.

For example: I have the faith we can distribute natural resources differently. We have beliefs on it. Then, we believe in the change and take some actions. — javi2541997

You seem to be describing mechanical faith which is instilled in someone by adapting to society or indoctrination. Expand your example to the question of government. We can have mechanical faith that it will change things for the better. But somehow it never does.

Efforts to know thyself reveal that since we are as we are, everything is as it is. A person can have blind faith in government but can learn that government just reflects the hypocrisy of the human condition as it is so everything repeats regardless of our blind faith. If self knowledge reveals the futility of blind faith in government, then the purpose and necessity of the essence religion becomes clear; it provides an inner vertical path to conscious faith and freedom for those open to it which reconciles our higher and lower natures.

You referred to some interesting ideas in your recent posts. You spoke of St John of the Cross, but I did read his book, 'The Dark Night of the Soul' a couple of years ago. One book which I have, but haven't got around to reading is, 'My Imitation of Christ,' by TA Kempis. I became interested that after reading about it in an interview with Richard Butler of The Psychedelic Furs, because it inspired a track they wrote called, 'The Imitation of Christ'. Also, The Temenous Academy looks interesting. I am familiar with the writings of Kathleen Raine on William Blake, but had not heard of this academy.

One idea you mentioned was the whole idea of the lower and higher aspect of the self and this is something I have wondered about, partly in relation to Jung's idea of the shadow. However, he was a bit ambiguous about this in his writings. In some places he talks about the distinction but he also says that we should try to integrate parts which have been relegated to the shadow. However, I do find the idea of a division between the lower and higher self useful, although it is probably not absolute. One other idea, probably linked to the higher self is the idea of the daimon, which I believe has a history going back to the Greeks. I find this concept very useful and perhaps it can be developed through meditative practice.

I am still reading 'The Zhuangzi'. I can see why it is considered as a literary classic. I might have finished it by now if it wasn't in such tiny print on my phone, but it is perhaps best to absorb a book like this slowly, giving time for reflection.

Regarding your post, I do agree that questions about religion are connected to being human. I have always wondered about religious and philosophical ideas. I was brought up as a Catholic but have, as you may have come across in my posts, questioned those beliefs. It became so intense at one stage and I used to even take caffeine tablets to try to gain the greatest clarity of thought. I was really wrestling with the whole question of understanding how to view reality. This was partly to try to understand my own precognitive experiences initially, but it ended up with me questioning the whole basis of my Catholic faith.

However, I do think about questions of religious beliefs a lot and do have affinity with esoteric philosophy. It does seem that there is so much time for thinking and reflection on the deep questions in the time of lockdowns.

You seem to be describing mechanical faith which is instilled in someone by adapting to society or indoctrination. Expand your example to the question of government. We can have mechanical faith that it will change things for the better. But somehow it never does. — Nikolas

Yes. It is sad but this is what literally happens in most of the issues which come from governance. Somehow I have blind faith on people. No in governors. Governors are just there to plump theirs pockets with a lot of money and disappoint the people.
But I guess we did not lose everything. It is all about of no depending from government (It is impossible I understand). Because we can use internet and knowledge to improve the circumstances. For example, I have a lot of hope on the people who participate in this forum or other related forums. This what makes the difference. Debating without consideration or prejudices in others.

You seem to be describing mechanical faith which is instilled in someone by adapting to society or indoctrination. — Nikolas

Also yes, I tried to explain it in a mechanical way because in my opinion it could have a chain of working. Nevertheless, as you explained this not necessarily works all the time.

It seems awful that you had a philosophy tutor who wished you to 'parrot' what was taught. It seems to defeat the whole purpose of studying philosophy. I don't think I ever had a tutor say that to me in any subject I studied.

I have read both Alan Watts and Krishnamurti and find them both inspirational. Krishnamurti is particularly interesting in the way so much was projected upon him as an expectation that he was to become a world spiritual teacher. He had to deconstruct that myth in itself and then he did become a renouned spiritual writer, but on his own terms.

No point in setting up faith as a magical word. It is just belief without evidence and works no differently than in the case of those people who thought Hitler was delivering them a magnificent world based on blood magic and race. Faith is the excuse people give for believing in something when they have no good reasons. — Tom Storm

I disagree and will continue to argue "faith" can have a magical effect including healing us and achieving more than we believe we can. The nature of faith proves to religious people, and especially Christians, that what they believe is true. Faith can be very empowering and I don't think we should underestimate that. So can self-confidence.

This is true but what of it? All religions commit atrocities and justify it with appeals to truth or faith. There is no necessary correlation between religious belief and moral behaviour. The history of our world is one of religions energetically basing their actions on choreographed bigotry and human rights violations. Hardly surprising when the only shaky evidence for God is in ancient books and outrageous claims. — Tom Storm

Yes, there is a necessary correlation between belief and behavior because the belief is a point of view that determines how we see it and our behavior is a reaction to how we see it. Which makes your statement of choreographed bigotry true.

Our planet, and life, is reason enough to believe in a god. The problem is with the mythology not the notion of a force beyond our comprehension. Personally, I am strongly in favor of having reverence and a sense of awe. Some appreciate worshipping in nature rather than a church. When we can do this with reverence, our hearts can be flooded with happiness and when we feel good we desire to do good.

Yes. It is sad but this is what literally happens in most of the issues which come from governance. Somehow I have blind faith on people. No in governors. Governors are just there to plump theirs pockets with a lot of money and disappoint the people.
But I guess we did not lose everything. It is all about of no depending from government (It is impossible I understand). Because we can use internet and knowledge to improve the circumstances. For example, I have a lot of hope on the people who participate in this forum or other related forums. This what makes the difference. Debating without consideration or prejudices in others. — javi2541997

Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. If this is true the knowledge of the internet and philosophy debates are meaningless since they are only concerned with what we know; rather than what we ARE. The great ideas of the past associated with religion and philosophy help us to remember. In these times it means to "awaken" But before beginning seriously to awaken, person must have experienced that they are not awake. How can I believe in humanity, as a creature of reaction, being different from what it is, when what we ARE is proven every day? It is like asking a leopard to change its spots.

Yet if we want to change what we ARE for the good of humanity and ourselves, we first have to learn what we ARE or the qualities of our being. This requires efforts to "Know Thyself" or having the experience of ourselves rather than imagining ourselves.

Imagine some kid in college who has felt the problem and asks his prof returning from a BLM meeting: "How can I know myself"? What kind or response will he get? That is why nothing changes and everything repeats. We don't know what we ARE.

Don't be afraid to call out and oppose supernatural appeals to bigotry where they happen. It is best understood this way: 'I don't hate you, I hate your beliefs.' — Tom Storm

I had to look up the meaning of bigotry.

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. — Oxford

I think coming down too hard on religious people instead of being respectful and open-minded might qualify as bigotry? It is about being the kind of person I want to be. I don't want to be obstinate or unreasonable, but for sure, I feel that way often.

I had to look up the meaning of bigotry.
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
— Oxford — Athena

I had to look up the meaning of bigotry.
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
— Oxford

A good description of Antifa and BLM not to mention an expression of emotional faith in ones imaginary self importance.

Imagine some kid in college who has felt the problem and asks his prof returning from a BLM meeting: "How can I know myself"? What kind or response will he get? That is why nothing changes and everything repeats. We don't know what we ARE. — Nikolas

Well it could be an interesting question for a kid. It depends in the knowledge of that kid because asking who I am only can come from a person who love to read or debate. It is sad but there will be people that will never question or experience this important belief.
As you said, we do not know what we are. Because it is a good metaphysic question. It is free to interpret.
But... somehow it can be quite sad that humans can go to Mars but we don’t explain who we are or how we can be happy (I am pretty romantic sometimes).

Yet if we want to change what we ARE for the good of humanity and ourselves, we first have to learn what we ARE or the qualities of our being. This requires efforts to "Know Thyself" or having the experience of ourselves rather than imagining ourselves. — Nikolas

Yes. Completely. Requires a lot of effort. But the problem starts when we are in a complex situation that our educational system only promotes practical education. They prepare us how to work and have an income but not asking ourselves what is going on
This situation started since Spinoza in the enlightenment, decided put a practical system.

I am still reading 'The Zhuangzi'... it is perhaps best to absorb a book like this slowly, giving time for reflection. — Jack Cummins

I agree. I have only just finished the Introduction :smile:

Thanks for sharing your background; most interesting. To have a healthy curiosity, interest in people and ability to pose intelligent questions is of great benefit when starting and maintaining a thread.
It also takes time, energy and commitment.
Thank you.

That is sad. I am an old hippie and as I watch the rioters and all that anger, I want to hand out flowers and sing songs that lift our spirits. "All we need is love, love. Love is all we need is need." :flower:

They prepare us how to work and have an income but not asking ourselves what is going on — javi2541997

A liberal education encourages us to ask the big questions and before 1958, in the US, all children had liberal educations. The purpose of education was well-rounded individual growth. In 1917 vocation education as add to public education and this was a wonderful thing! It meant having better jobs and better pay and moving into cities with more to offer. It meant developing a middle class and an economy that provides so much for citizens our forefathers would be thrilled by our success. But adding vocation education did not change the priority purpose of education.

The military technology of the second world war changed the purpose of education. We began preparing the young to be products for industry. The 1958 National Defense Education Act had a 4 year limit but instead of returning to education for well-rounded individual growth, education for the military-industrial complex consumed us. We are now what we defended our democracy against, and our Capital Building is an ugly fortress no longer open to the public.

↪Nikolas That is sad. I am an old hippie and as I watch the rioters and all that anger, I want to hand out flowers and sing songs that lift our spirits. "All we need is love, love. Love is all we need is need." :flower: — Athena

Yes this is the human condition. Some people are destroying and killing while others throw flowers. Then after a while the destroyers start preaching love and the flower throwers start to destroy. As written in Ecclesiastes 3:

A Time for Everything
3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

Existence including animal life, moves in cycles. Is it the same for conscious life? That we don't know

individual growth. In 1917 vocation education as add to public education and this was a wonderful thing! — Athena

Of course it is. Vocational education is one of the pillars in ancient society, this provided making many beautiful things like art, philosophy, or books. But sadly we will not see this anymore, because as you said:

The military technology of the second world war changed the purpose of education. We began preparing the young to be products for industry. — Athena

We still be products for industry. Here is what happens right know: Just go for school to learn the principles of basic. Then, choose a career. Afterward (supposedly) you get a job. Congratulations you are just another brick in the wall. Pay the bill and hmm... use the public services (?) because States want to make us think this is “success”.
How we ended up here? Easy. The governors and government. It is the most powerful aspect in today’s society. If they control education they control everything. They are so clever because we are in an era where is more easier the access for education. So they do not want the vocational education. If you are more open to read you question everything, even the governors... and they do not want so.

I wish we can go back to liberal education. This is literally where works so good in the social welfare states as Norway for example.

"How can I know myself"? — Nikolas

You might try Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. books, "Gods in Everyman" and "Goddesses in Everywoman". The Greek gods and goddesses are archetypes of our different human types. Bolen's books tell us more about ourselves than we thought we could know because we can see ourselves in the gods and goddesses.

In my youth, I was Persephone, the maiden stage of a female's life. When we marry some follow the path of Hera (wife) and some the path of Demeter (mother). Demeter and Hestia became very important to me. When my children were grown and out of the home, I shifted to Athena and have been a teacher and defender of democracy ever since.

What is really surprising is Bolen's explanations include the different stages of our lives and the positive and negative sides of each archetype. Here we can see how our childhoods influenced the other stages of our life and the lives of people who know.

We still be products for industry. Here is what happens right know: Just go for school to learn the principles of basic. Then, choose a career. Afterward (supposedly) you get a job. Congratulations you are just another brick in the wall. Pay the bill and hmm... use the public services (?) because States want to make us think this is “success”.
How we ended up here? Easy. The governors and government. It is the most powerful aspect in today’s society. If they control education they control everything. They are so clever because we are in an era where is more easier the access for education. So they do not want the vocational education. If you are more open to read you question everything, even the governors... and they do not want so.

I wish we can go back to liberal education. This is literally where works so good in the social welfare states as Norway for example. — javi2541997

You got it but it is not because this is what governors and representatives want for us. They were lead to believe what we have is essential, just the same as most citizens believe we must have the education we have. Agreeing with me about the importance of liberal education puts you in the minority and those who represent us in government are humans just like you and me.

I say those words because I have tried so hard to raise awareness of what was done and why and I hit the wall of people being sure we must have the education we have and jumping on me for thinking public education should return to education for good moral judgment. You missed what Christianity has to do with the mess we are in! Christianity plays a big role in this mess. German education for technology left moral training to the church and both the military interest and Christian interest are best served by leaving moral training to the church. Both the military and the church want people who do not question and obey. You may have noticed, Bible study is limited to studying the Bible, and excludes other religions and philosophy. You are invited to ask questions as long as all your answers come from the Bible.

Edit :lol: I just wrote a short book and deleted it. There is a lot to say. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and their model of education for technology. We replaced classic philosophy with German philosophy. Now the US is as seriously in need of psychoanalysis as much as some whackos on the streets.

I think coming down too hard on religious people instead of being respectful and open-minded might qualify as bigotry? — Athena

Sure. But as I said 'where they happen' coming down on people too hard is not possible if they are homophobic, transphobic, racist and misogynist as some religious people often are and proudly so.

I disagree and will continue to argue "faith" can have a magical effect including healing us and achieving more than we believe we can. The nature of faith proves to religious people, and especially Christians, that what they believe is true. Faith can be very empowering and I don't think we should underestimate that. So can self-confidence. — Athena

I doubt there is any evidence for what you say, but that said, faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason. What can you not justify with an appeal to faith? Faith is used daily by millions to justify any number of bigotries.

I think coming down too hard on religious people instead of being respectful and open-minded might qualify as bigotry? — Athena

One last thing. In the 1980's I knew some people from South Africa. I was against apartheid. They were not. They were devout church going Christians. I asked them why separate black people from white people. They responded, 'It is God's will. We have it on faith that black people are not equal to white people apartheid is a necessary step.' I will spare you the other views they held on faith. Over the decades I have met dozens of people (and we know there must be millions) who hold similarly inadequate views as a matter of faith. Faith has no quality control and because it is not based on reason, it is not open to scrutiny.

You might try Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. books, "Gods in Everyman" and "Goddesses in Everywoman". The Greek gods and goddesses are archetypes of our different human types. Bolen's books tell us more about ourselves than we thought we could know because we can see ourselves in the gods and goddesses.

In my youth, I was Persephone, the maiden stage of a female's life. When we marry some follow the path of Hera (wife) and some the path of Demeter (mother). Demeter and Hestia became very important to me. When my children were grown and out of the home, I shifted to Athena and have been a teacher and defender of democracy ever since.

What is really surprising is Bolen's explanations include the different stages of our lives and the positive and negative sides of each archetype. Here we can see how our childhoods influenced the other stages of our life and the lives of people who know. — Athena

I am an Aries male. That is the essence type I am a part of. However it doesn't make me a God and Simone Weil explains why

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him."

To know thyself is not to imagine oneself.

I do not recall ever having a concept of the City of God — Athena

Pardon me, I was referring the book of The City of God by St. Augustine.
My earlier reference to The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis is another book from the 15nth century.

I should have given those as references the first time.