I thought we were all about leaving dogma — Franz Liszt
Don’t worry, I have just been asked to prove my atheism, that is all :) — Franz Liszt
You've misread what I wrote. More plainly then: claiming that philosophy hasn't proven anything is like claiming an unmarried man still beats his wife – my point is that philosophy, as I understand it, isn't in the "proving" business, Fool, any more than is music or religion. It's nonsense to blame P for what P does not endeavor to do. Anyway, when philosophy seeks to "prove" something it calves-off into one of the sciences, the production of which alone has made philosophy indispensable to culture and civilization. — 180 Proof
I can imagine. As you say, it isn’t a big issue, but frustrating. There will always be trolls — Franz Liszt
For me a hidden God is functionally exactly the same as no God. There would still be no good reason to believe. — Tom Storm
Agreed. I guess the good thing about online forums is that trolls do not do as much harm. Frustrating. „ It is a massive uneaten book of personalities“ what a lovely way to put it :) — Franz Liszt
Philosophy (and its history) for me means contemplating the variety of ways in which we are unwise (i.e. confused, perplexed, frustrated, oblivious, sleepwalking-through-our-lives aka "foolish") which are studied distinctly as Ontology, Axiology & Epistemology (prioritized by whatever schema (Metaphysics) is deemed most illustrative, or illuminating).What then is philosophy? — TheMadFool
No. Logic is a by-product of philosophy (re: axiology).Is it, as I think it is, simply a ritualized homage to logic?
Philosophy (and its history) for me means contemplating the variety of ways in which we are unwise (i.e. confused, perplexed, frustrated, oblivious, sleepwalking-through-our-lives aka "foolish") which are studied distinctly as Ontology, Axiology & Epistemology (prioritized by whatever schema (Metaphysics) is deemed most illustrative, or illuminating).
Is it, as I think it is, simply a ritualized homage to logic?
No. Logic is a by-product of philosophy (re: axiology). — 180 Proof
The problem with it is we may know it (the claim of some theists that they experience god in a convincing way) is BS, but how do we help them understand it is? — Tom Storm
Just because an atheist has asked a question that might seem to go against atheism, it doesn’t mean you should just reject it. — Franz Liszt
We believe that we are just biological animals or just chemicals grouped together through evolution — Franz Liszt
I feel the only way to escape this paradox is to say that we are designed by some higher truth in the universe. — Franz Liszt
Whether we are a bunch of chemicals or a different order of movement form, logic and science is not illusionary necessarily (although they can be, if we live solipsism). They can be conceptual, not material, while not being illusionary.The answer, if we are just a bunch of chemicals, is that we can’t. Using this logic, science is just an illusion, so is logic. However, we have used science and logic to come to these conclusions, which becomes a paradox. — Franz Liszt
Just because an atheist has asked a question that might seem to go against atheism, it doesn’t mean you should just reject it.
— Franz Liszt
What do you mean by "reject it". You mean dismiss the argument? No, my main drag was not to dismiss your argument but to question your authenticity.
I admit, you can't do anything to convince me that you are not a theist. I may change my opinion as time goes on. However, you made a few statements OUTSIDE your argument, that an atheist well versed in philosophy would never say, but a theist well versed in philosophy would definitely say. For instance:
We believe that we are just biological animals or just chemicals grouped together through evolution
— Franz Liszt — god must be atheist
I assume you intended to reply to Gnomon. Enformationism is my attempt to resolve the paradox of Living - Thinking - Loving Matter, without bowing to the authority of any particular scripture or tradition --- amd without hiding my head in the sand. Atheism is the belief system that assumes (without evidence) that the material world (or multiverse) is eternal and un-created. But self-existence (aseity) is a signature property of a Deity. Before astronomers were forced to conclude that the world, suddenly-and-without-warning, began to exist 14 billion years ago, it was logical to conclude that our physical reality was eternal, and possibly self-existent.↪norm
I am grateful for this reply. This Enformationism is rather interesting and I will attempt to think about it more. — Franz Liszt
I would normally consider myself an atheist, however recently I’ve wondered whether some sort of theistic claims are actually reasonable. — Franz Liszt
The "delusion" of Atheism is that it has found a plausible answer to the "hard" questions of "God, the Universe, and Everything". — Gnomon
A key problem may be that most theists, like most humans, aren't really that engaged in thinking things through for themselves. — Foghorn
SO you're studying necromancy; raising threads from the dead. — Banno
Or is it that theists need to believe folk are unthinkingly avoiding theism, because the alternative - that they are giving the issue of god due consideration and then rejecting it - is too unpalatable for them? — Banno
They're dead when they've been closed by the mods. — Foghorn
To the degree folks of all flavors do think about it, what typically happens is they travel a little ways down the investigation trail, and then stop and build a fort. — Foghorn
I feel the only way to escape this paradox is to say that we are designed by some higher truth in the universe. — Franz Liszt
The laws & constants of our world do indeed seem to be "arbitrary" to us, because they boil-down to a sequence of numbers that have no meaning for us creatures of the code. I suspect that the agents inside a computer game (TRON, for example) or inside a simulated world ( such as The MATRIX) would not be able to make sense of the digital code that is streaming through their world. (see below) That's because they don't know the Mind of their Programmer -- his numerical language or his intentions for the game.First is how we should view universal laws, such as the speed of light, or gravitational forces. These appear to be wholly arbitrary, — Count Timothy von Icarus
I'm more familiar with Hegel than Boeme. But Wikipedia indicates that his notion of deity was basically Judeo-Christian, with some elements of Gnostic Mysticism. Frank Tipler's Omega Point theory also seems to be a modified version of Christian Theology, as viewed through a lens of Quantum spookiness. And I can see his point -- up to a point.There is also a nice dovetail between these aspects of reality and the image of God as a being that must create something outside itself to define itself and thus exist; something like the theology of Boehme. — Count Timothy von Icarus
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