"Is the distinction between" sensation and ecstacy/trauma "an illusion"? :roll: — 180 Proof

So, you do have a low opinion of "ego-fantasy beauty" and prefer "ego-suspension beauty" over it. If so, my question is, could you be mistaken in your assessment? That both are beauty suggests either an identity of form i.e. the same thing about them make them beautiful or an overlap of aesthetic qualities i.e. they aren't so distinct from each other to justify different opinions of them.

Could I be mistaken? I haven't been given reasons to doubt my position on "beauty" (or aesthetics) yet.

Could I be mistaken? I haven't been given reasons to doubt my position on "beauty" (or aesthetics) yet. — 180 Proof

I see but you do realize that perfection in beauty would mean the conjunction of both "superficial beauty" and "deep beauty", right? I mean the best case scenario is what can be approximated with the phrase, "beauty with brains" and if you concur then it must mean that "ego-fantasy" beauty isn't all that bad as Murdoch makes it out to be.

If we could list the possible combinations of the two kinds of beauty we're discussing in order of preference it would look like this:

1. Ego-fantasy beauty present AND Ego-suspension beauty present [Aesthetic Perfection]

2. Ego fantasy beauty absent AND Ego-suspension beauty present

3. Ego fantasy beauty present AND Ego-suspension beauty absent

4. Ego-fantasy beauty absent AND Ego-suspension beauty absent [Ugliness Perfection]

The list so constructed suggests ego-fantasy beauty has a value of its own and that only relative to ego-suspension beauty does its value diminish and, more importantly, aesthetic perfection requires both and that Ugliness Perfection means both are absent.

My hunch is that you're worried about 3 and that has prejudiced you against ego-fantasy beauty (once bitten, twice shy :smile: ) Look at the other possibilities.

Perfection? Non sequitur, Fool. Your tangent's not ... interesting.

Perfection? Non sequitur, Fool. Your tangent's not ... interesting. — 180 Proof

Don't fixate on the word "perfection". I'm offering you options in re the two kinds of beauty. What, in your opinion, is the best among them?

Let's leave aside our differences for the moment and discuss something else - the link between aesthetics and ethics and what I suppose is the specter of ego in that. I'll go first. Ethics is, in a sense, about aesthetics for the simple reason that immorality, especially extreme cases like torture, genocide, for example, evoke in us disgust, revulsion; bad! Yuck! In short, there's something ugly about immorality and if so, good must be beautiful and that seems to be the case as when we see good people, good actions, good things, we experience the so-called "warm fuzzy feelings". Ergo, ethics, under this interpretation, must be about beauty.

I'm offering you options in re the two kinds of beauty. What, in your opinion, is the best among them? — TheMadFool

Asked and answered ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/507157

I get what you're saying, but I don't know dude. I've had more pleasant memories enjoying a great cheap food cart repeatedly over that one fancy restaurant I was fortunate to go to once. I switch between enjoying both a particular genre of Electronic Dance Music (Psy Trance) and Mozart. I don't really think the value of these things is as much of a spectrum as you make it out to be. I think you can get a lot of both if you examine it enough.

Ok. But the question in the OP isn't which do I "enjoy" more? or which is more "pleasant"?

Well your post is how much more you can "get out of something" if you make the effort to try to appreciate it right? I probably can get more out a particular Mozart composition than a EDM song (I'm talking about what I personally consider good EDM btw), but I don't think they should be compared to each other along a spectrum of one ruler really. Each of their contributions to my life are unique. And there's a lot of depth to get out of simple experiences. Gordon Ramsay is an abusive jerk, but I like how he shows how perfecting scrambled eggs and toast can be an art in itself rather than some fancy dish he's making. I think life is truly diminished without savoring both.

'm offering you options in re the two kinds of beauty. What, in your opinion, is the best among them?
— TheMadFool
Asked and answered ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/507157 — 180 Proof

Have you never encountered something, formed an opinion of it, then changed your mind for whatever reason, and reverted back to what you thought of it at first?

Yeah, so?

Yeah, so? — 180 Proof

In that "yeah" is the seed of a possibility which you might wish to consider in the context of the distinction between "ego-fantasy beauty" and "ego-suspension beauty". Is there a chance that you might change your mind in re your views on them?

If presented with sufficient grounds for doubt or valid counter-arguments, then of course.