• Bartricks
    6k
    I do not believe the state is entitled to do anything to us that we would not be justified in doing to each other in the state's absence. So, if there is no state I am still entitled to defend myself against attack, and I am still entitled to keep the food I grew and stop you from taking it from me, and I am still entitled to others keeping up their ends of bargains we've voluntarily entered into, and so on. And thus, in principle anyway, I am entitled to delegate such matters to others. Indeed, I do not actually have to delegate them: others, if they so wish, can decide to protect my rights. If, for instance, I am being attacked, then you are entitled to protect me from that attack. Perhaps there are exceptions, but for the most part anyone can, if they so wish, decide to protect another person's rights from being violated.

    The point is that you can't get out what you haven't put in. And so the state can't magically acquire entitlements to do things to us that we would not have had in its absence. So one way to think about whether something the state is doing is just or not, is to imagine an individual doing the same thing to you and then considering whether that individual would be justified in doing it. If, for example, I decide that you are not eating healthily enough and so decide to fine you for any unhealthy food you purchase so as to try and encourage you to eat more healthily - and threaten you with violence if you do not pay those fines - that would be, well, outrageous. I mean, who do I think I am? What business of mine is it what you eat? And I am absolutely not entitled to do those things. And it makes no difference how powerful I am - I mean, if I am a huge all-seeing giant will that magically mean that I am now entitled to menace you into leading the lifestyle I want you to lead? No, clearly not. And the same applies if that giant is made of a group of people - that is, if instead of a mind it has a committee room.

    So far so good - but this means that though the state (indeed, anyone) is entitled to protect our rights, it is not entitled to extract payment from us for doing so. Not unless we have entered into an agreement for it to do so, anyway. I can decide to protect your rights from the infringing activity of others. But I can't then demand that you pay me for doing so. (Perhaps i ought to pay you - after all, it was nice of you to undertake to protect my rights for me - but still, you're not entitled to extract the payment from me with menaces, are you?).

    But what about those who have violated our rights? Well, here matters are very different. If someone has violated your rights, then that person loses some of the protection that rights give, especially if they have done so voluntarily. Even if I smash your vase accidentally, I owe you restitution that can, if necessary, be extracted by force if it is not voluntarily given; and so it is even clearer then, that if one voluntarily violates another's rights, then one owes restitution and that restitution can be extracted by force if necessary.

    Right: well, I didn't choose to live a life here. That is something others - my parents - have made me do. They knew full well what life here was like - that one needs to work to survive and that living here carries with it all kinds of risks of harm, including the risk that others will violate one's rights.

    Seems to me quite clear, then: our parents have violated our rights and have voluntarily exposed us to the risks of living. As such our parents owe us a living and owe us protection for our rights. That is, our parents owe us the state institutions: they owe it to us to provide us with an education; owe it to us to provide us with a police force and justice system designed to protect our rights; and owe it to us to provide us with a welfare system that guarantees us a decent standard of living without us having to work or beg for it. And we are entitled to extract payment for these things from them with force if necessary; that is, it is justified to tax parents to pay for the state institutions.

    So that's my solution to the problem of justifying taxing people - which is, let's be clear, to extract money with menaces - to pay for the state. It is clearly unjustified in the main, but it is entirely justified if the money in question is being forcibly extracted from parents (and other rights violators, of course). It's good, isn't it?
  • Banno
    25k
    ...entitled...Bartricks

    More of the same.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yes, more ingenuity. Thank me.
  • Banno
    25k
    ingenuity implies originality. You are just parroting sovereign citizen junk politics.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    It's an original proposal, but of course I have appealed to familiar ideas about the nature of rights. That's what makes it interesting, or at least, interesting to those who are interested in philosophy and what's actually just etc. Here's my suggestion: if you've got nothing interesting to say, try saying nothing.
  • Banno
    25k
    I do not believe the state is entitled to do anything to us that we would not be justified in doing to each other in the state's absence.Bartricks

    ...the rest of us believe that the state ought act so as to protect our shared interests in the face of recalcitrant individuals.
  • Banno
    25k
    if you've got nothing interesting to say, try saying nothing.Bartricks

    You just do not like what I have to say.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Well that's certainly true too. But I do not like what you say precisely because it is banal and not worth saying.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ..the rest of us believe that the state ought act so as to protect our shared interests in the face of recalcitrant individuals.Banno

    Most people are also spectacularly stupid and have probably spent a grand total of 10 minutes thinking about this kind of thing, if they've spent any time thinking about it at all. What's your point? Try engaging with the argument.
  • Banno
    25k
    And so the state can't magically acquire entitlements to do things to us that we would not have had in its absence.Bartricks

    Yes it can - and demonstrably, it does. You can fight, but you cannot wage war. You can make paper, you cannot print money. You can become a vigilante, but not a police officer. We create new edifices by engaging in social practices.
  • Banno
    25k
    but this means that though the state (indeed, anyone) is entitled to protect our rights, it is not entitled to extract payment from us for doing so.Bartricks

    That's incoherent; entitlement is a social contract; you have no entitlements not granted you by us.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yes it can - and demonstrably, it does. You can fight, but you cannot wage war. You can make paper, you cannot print money. You can become a vigilante, but not a police officer. We create new edifices by engaging in social practices.Banno

    You're not providing any kind of argument, you're just begging the question and providing a list of things I would find it difficult to do.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    That's incoherent; entitlement is a social contract; you have no entitlements not granted you by us.Banno

    Okaaay. Good one. Reason is strong with this one.
  • Banno
    25k
    That is something others - my parents - have made me do.Bartricks

    ...along with making your bed and washing the dishes? This strikes me as teenage whining. Growing up involves taking responsibility not just for yourself, but for those in your care.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    This strikes me as teenage whining.Banno

    So? You're whining.

    Growing up involves taking responsibility not just for yourself, but for those in your care.Banno

    Erm....relevance? I need to trim the hedge. My toe hurts. Do I really need to clean my teeth?
  • Banno
    25k
    ...relevance..Bartricks

    Yep, one who is consumed by themselves would not see the relevance. The extreme individualism that underpins such thought sits outside of ethics, not seeing how it depends on the benevolence of others.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yep, one who is consumed by themselves would not see the relevance.Banno

    Oh, I see - once more it's my pesky rationalism getting in the way of me seeing what those free from it can perceive so clearly. You sound rather impressed with yourself.

    The extreme individualism that underpins such thought sits outside of ethics, not seeing how it depends on the benevolence of others.Banno

    Well that's one for the book of quotes.
  • Banno
    25k
    ...my pesky rationalism...Bartricks

    No, it's your obsession with self.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    So, er, just to be clear: do you think individuals do not exist? Or do you think individuals do not have rights? Or - and this is what I suspect is the case - you are having no very clear thoughts about anything, you're just not letting that stop you?
  • Banno
    25k
    No, individuals exist. And have rights. But so do organisations and societies. Your analysis leaves these out.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Er, no, my analysis clearly mentions them.

    So, individuals exist and have rights. Good boy!! Now do you have an imagination in there? If you do, try and imagine that there is no society. If you like, imagine an island on which several people have just washed-up. Can you do that?
  • Banno
    25k
    ...my analysis clearly mentions them.Bartricks

    Where?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    In the OP. Read it.
  • Banno
    25k
    I did. Where?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    In the OP. Read it.
  • Banno
    25k
    Posts last wins.
  • frank
    15.8k
    And so the state can't magically acquire entitlements to do things to us that we would not have had in its absenceBartricks

    That's why there's an implicit social contract.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    That's why there's an implicit social contract.frank

    What?
  • Banno
    25k
    Do we start with Leviathan? Or go straight to the construction of social reality.

    Perhaps some philosophy might be done here after all...
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Philosophy was done in the OP. It stopped when you started.

    How about you actually address the argument in the OP, rather than pretending you've read Leviathan.

    If you're interested in name dropping, the view I expressed in the opening line is Locke's.
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