the idea on why time and space exists — Tombob
If everything originates from an infinite state: everything that has existed, exists and will exist has always existed. This leads to the universe being deterministic. — Tombob
Time and space exists because we humans need to put an order inside our chaos. These are complex and abstract concepts. Living a life without both time and space would be very difficult because we are used to live like this since we are born. I don’t know if it is good or flawed how we see the time and space considering how vast the Cosmos is (amazing). — javi2541997
True. It is completely determinism. But I would like to debate with you if “everything” as you say could be timeless. I guess this another character we just give to “everything”. It always been there and will be. Our time perception passes but inside everything don’t because it is like an omnipresence subterfuge. Universe will be still there during the centuries. We the humans will not. We are the deterministic ones. — javi2541997
1) Time and space has been in motion without a starting point. — Tombob
a) I exclude 1 considering physical measurements would not be possible in such circumstances. Why? Because physical measurements need a starting point, which 1 lacks. — Tombob
2) Time and space came into existence by chance. — Tombob
b) I see 2 as a possibility, but unlikely, as it contradicts the fundamental observations of cause and effect in the universe. — Tombob
3) Time and space emerged through an infinite state. — Tombob
c) 3 is based on cause and effect. If everything is based on cause and effect, it ultimately leads to something that has its own cause of exstience; an infinite state. — Tombob
If everything originates from an infinite state: everything that has existed, exists and will exist has always existed. — Tombob
This leads to the universe being deterministic. — Tombob
I think that the origin and nature of the universe is a bad place for a philosophy to start. Valid knowledge begins at the fingertips, and builds from the bottom upwards and outwards. — counterpunch
Adopting some absolute promontory - from which to look down on human beings, and expound on concepts like truth and justice, is just bad form. — counterpunch
cannot be timeless, one of your starting points is necessarily the assumption that time and space came into existence by chance. — Tombob
Why? I can see the starting point of time and space as something that is "beginning at the fingertips". However, I'm not sure what the expression fully means. What does "adopting some absolotue promontory" mean? How would you expound on concepts like truth and justice, or determinism even? — Tombob
I guess by this you just mean that the past is infinite. — SophistiCat
The objection doesn't make a lot of sense. We choose the starting points for our measurements to be whatever we want, and the overall extent of time and space has no bearing on that - demonstrably so, because in no instance (other than traditional creation stories and such) do our measurements reference an absolute beginning of time and space.
And even if there was such a difficulty, that would not be a good metaphysical argument, unless you think that time and space have no mind-independent existence whatsoever. Reality doesn't care about our convenience. — SophistiCat
I don't know what either the thesis or the response even mean. — SophistiCat
Ditto. I have no idea what you mean by "infinite state." — SophistiCat
I don't know how that follows (since I don't know what "infinite state" is), but taken at face value, this is absurd. — SophistiCat
OK, now I don't even know what you mean by "deterministic." Since you constantly refer to "cause and effect" I took you to mean causal determinism, i.e. the idea that given the state of the world at some point (or slice) in time, everything that happens before and after is determined by causal laws. This notion of determinism is timeless, i.e. it does not depend on whether we are talking about something that has happened, is happening or will happen. — SophistiCat
An existential beginning is required to be able to measure time. — Tombob
If time and space would have an infinite past, motion would be impossible, and its state would be unchangeable. — Tombob
It means that time and space came into being without a cause. — Tombob
By infinite state I mean something that is existing with an infinite past. A framework that allows time and space, and everything in it to exist. It is immaterial, as physicality cannot have an infinite past. — Tombob
If everything originates from an infinite state: everything that has existed, exists and will exist has always existed. This leads to the universe being deterministic.
What are your thoughts? — Tombob
And yet here we are, measuring time all the time (as it were) with no regard to any such existential beginning. So this can't be true. All we need to measure anything is a measuring device (a clock in this case). — SophistiCat
I don't see how this follows. — SophistiCat
Well, what would it mean for time and space to be the effect of a cause? We usually assume that causes precede effects, and that requires time to be already in place. No time - no causality. So if you are talking about the beginning of all time, rather than just the beginning of an age, then it must perforce be uncaused. — SophistiCat
You lost me here. Something "immaterial" - that apparently exists within some sort of immaterial (?) time - somehow (?) gives rise to the physical time? This is "language on holiday," I am afraid. You just said some words, waved your hands, and made like you've solved the problem. But what have you solved? Where's the solution? — SophistiCat
Dumb it down for me some. A newly built wall, and it's future state of ruin (provided it's not repaired as needed) both exist, just not in the same place or time, essentially? Kind of a trippy concept to wrap your head around. Is this similar to the "moving spotlight theory" of time? "It's all relative", etc? — Outlander
To me, in a strictly scientific understanding of "reality" absent of anything spiritual, it would make more sense to me that somewhere "in a galaxy far far away" (lol) people really evolved billions of years ahead of us who have since been able to master time, space, gravity, and every force on Earth and beyond long ago and..I dunno just kind of mess with us every now and then. Or help, if in the right mood. :grin: — Outlander
That's not really on topic but basically something related to your question is "how did the Universe start"? The big bang as evidenced by some massive explosion from what is called "the singularity". What created the singularity? What predated it? Was there just a white space like in some abstract philosophical cartoon? Are we really all in a black hole and what we call "black holes" are just punctures in it? Where do they lead? Are there multiple universes? Are they side by side, stacked on top of each other or in completely different realms we cannot (or at least I cannot) even begin to grasp? What are your thoughts? — Outlander
That is why I exclude 1. — Tombob
I exclude 1 considering physical measurements would not be possible in such circumstances. Why? Because physical measurements need a starting point, which 1 lacks. — Tombob
Imagine a growing number with an infinite past — Tombob
Can you break down and furtherly explain the last sentence?
Could an explanation of the cause of time and space be that it exists as its own cause? — Tombob
It would be immaterial, seeing as it exists with no regard to time and space. But I have no real explanation how or why it gives rise to time and space, other than its setting makes it possible. — Tombob
If something happened before, even with an infinite size, does not suggest that it will be in the future. Between 0 and -1 is the same infinity as between 0 and 1 - the only difference is in which direction we are considering it. :)If everything originates from an infinite state: everything that has existed, exists and will exist has always existed. This leads to the universe being deterministic. — Томбоб
That's what I've been objecting to, because it's manifestly false, it contradicts our common experience. — SophistiCat
I can't imagine such a thing: numbers don't have a past. And we aren't talking about numbers, we are talking about time. — SophistiCat
Our usual idea of causation is tied up with space and time: causation occurs in space-time, with causes preceding their effects. Therefore, causation outside of space-time makes no sense. Nor does it make sense to ask what caused space-time itself: it is not something that can be caused.
You can instead ask about causes of events, states or entities in space and time. But if you ask what caused something right at the beginning of time (if time has a beginning), then the answer will have to be that it doesn't have a cause, because there is nothing preceding it.
If you want to appeal to some unusual concept of causation, one that does not apply to events, states or entities in space and time, then you will have to develop that concept first and convince us that it is real. We may take familiar causation for granted within the context of a discussion, but you cannot expect us to take for granted something unfamiliar, just because you decided to call it "causation." — SophistiCat
Well then it's not an explanation, but something pretending to be an explanation. If we drop everything that doesn't have a commonly understood meaning, then all that is left is a placeholder where an explanation is supposed to be. Giving it a name, such as "infinite state," doesn't legitimize it as an explanation. — SophistiCat
To me it's a singularity that sparked the Big Bang, which created the cosmos. Ultimately the universe will collapse in itself and become a singularity again. To then create the cosmos again. An eternal heartbeat (from a human point of view, because not all lifeforms have hearts)
(this is just my theory) — TaySan
If something happened before, even with an infinite size, does not suggest that it will be in the future. Between 0 and -1 is the same infinity as between 0 and 1 - the only difference is in which direction we are considering it. :) — SimpleUser
This implies the cycle being finite. — Tombob
Just because something happened before, even with infinite size, doesn't mean it will happen in the future. Between 0 and -1 is the same infinity as between 0 and 1 - the only difference is in which direction we look at it. :)
- SimpleUser
I am not following your reasoning here. Please clarify! — Tombob
You are simply mixing mathematics (abstraction) and physics (observable reality). We can tell how much time has passed since the beginning of our observable universe (between the "big bang" point and "now"). And this time is finite, not infinite. The reasoning given for the time "before the big bang" is just speculation. And, even more so, the assumption that "infinity in the past" implies "infinity in the future." — SimpleUser
An infinite past implies an infinite future, seeing as something existing with an infinite past cannot cease to exist. It would contradict the implication of an infinite past. — Tombob
Where did you get the idea that spacetime is infinite? What are you measuring? — SimpleUser
By the way, where will the "Planck constant" go? — SimpleUser
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