I don't know if Kierkegaard will address your thinking about sin and punishment. I brought that quote up in response to your comments about fear. It shows that he does not consider the tradition of enduring a "Fear of the Lord" as something that can be circumvented if one takes life seriously.
In regards to the limits of psychology, that element is part of his objection to the Hegelian system that would explain all experience and thus overcome conflicts. There is something that we cannot repair by ourselves.

I am interested in reading Kierkergaard, but not necessarily expecting him to provide answers, but just to encounter his voice and perspective. Both he, Hegel, and others were coming from a different time in history. I am not suggesting the current climate of thinking is a superior viewpoint, but radically different because we have such a wider panorama of ideas.

I am not wishing to go into the wilderness of mere relativism, but wish to be aware of the many perspectives because this awareness leads to a certain amount of distance. I don't believe that humanity has overcome the need for religious thinking, because even the most rational scientists have to encounter the unexpected and unpredictable. Perhaps the people who think that they have no moral dilemmas, will get to the point where they feel the guilt of conscience, even though they may not call it 'sin.'

I think it’s a matter of fact, although I’d have to research it to find the specifics. It’s not that they’re not as charitable, but that Christianity has an explicit command to care for the poor and sick. But I’d be happy to be proven — Wayfarer

I think all religions are basically the same. However, they are organized differently. Rome gave Christianity its organization and when Rome in the West failed, the Church had to pick up much of the responsibility of government. But charity is common to different belief systems.

Dāna (Devanagari: दान) is a Sanskrit and Pali word that connotes the virtue of generosity, charity or giving of alms in Indian philosophies.[1][2] It is alternatively transliterated as daana.[3][4]

In Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism, dāna is the practice of cultivating generosity. It can take the form of giving to an individual in distress or need.[5] It can also take the form of philanthropic public projects that empower and help many.[6]

According to historical records, dāna is an ancient practice in Indian traditions, tracing back to Vedic traditions.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%81na — Wikipedia

Someone put a lot of work into that explanation. Is it your original work?

Personally, I think family is very important. Next to that is a sense of community. But that is the way of the female. Our identity is about relationships, whereas, male identity seems centered on what a male does, a carpenter, a welder, a machinist, a farmer etc..

Economics - where money and resources are prioritized is almost entirely a reflection of the cultural priorities of a society. — Tom Storm

I am amazed by the huge transfer in wealth we are experiencing with so much money being given to citizens who have done nothing to earn it and telling them to spend it to stimulate the economy. I don't think that has been well thought out and I really want to live long enough to know how this does work out. I don't know if this is caring about the people or a new way of thinking what is best for the economy? I like it a whole lot better than Reagan's denial of people needing help and slashing the domestic budget and pouring money into military spending. But in the Reagan years, our dependency on OPEC oil and OPEC embargoing oil to the US, lead to an economic crash, and at the time the only way to correct that problem was having the military might to take back control of oil and keep it.

Trying to take control of Afghanistan did not go well, and setting up half the people to want to be like the West and leaving them to the mercy of the other half that wants to defend a way of life that is as old as biblical times, is a human crisis that I am very ashamed of.

Is it good human values to destroy the lives of others, so we can have a high standard of living? Once we have intervened, is it morally our responsibility to defend those who want to be as the West? Should we ask families to give up their sons' and daughters' lives in a defense of people on the other side of the world? I am really torn up at the moment because of our role in Afghanstan?

I am wondering about the economic plays and how they fit into human values.

I am not wishing to go into the wilderness of mere relativism, but wish to be aware of the many perspectives because this awareness leads to a certain amount of distance. I don't believe that humanity has overcome the need for religious thinking, because even the most rational scientists have to encounter the unexpected and unpredictable. Perhaps the people who think that they have no moral dilemmas, will get to the point where they feel the guilt of conscience, even though they may not call it 'sin.' — Jack Cummins

That is where I rely on Cicero and the belief that humans are compelled to do the right thing when they know what that is.

We all know shoplifting is wrong but how wrong? When we do wrong, we justify it. As in shoplifting, or paying a worker a wage that is not a livable wage. Capitalism can lead to great inequality and robbing from the rich is not so wrong. It can be seen a fair equalizing. I am not saying that shoplifting is right, but that we justify doing what we know is wrong. Justifying our wrongs proves Cicero is right. We need to see ourselves as the good guys. It is a biologically and psychologically determined fact.

I just read a book about education that is so racist it is shocking that such a book can be rewritten and published in this day and age! The man who wrote the book believes he is doing a good thing. This is where philosophy and science come in! In a democracy, we need to argue until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. We do not see this as the word of God, but an ongoing process to have, and live by, the best reasoning possible.

In a democracy, we need to argue until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. We do not see this as the word of God, but an ongoing process to have, and live by, the best reasoning possible. — Athena

The problem isn't a lack of reasoning but the inability to look; to consciously see. Simone Weil explains in this short poem. Without the ability to look, reasoning becomes just a tool for self justification further supporting all the arguments.

There Comes

If you do not fight it---if you look, just
look, steadily,
upon it,

there comes
a moment when you cannot do it,
if it is evil;

if good, a moment
when you cannot
not.

Perhaps you speak of fast and slow thinking? Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman explains fast and slow thinking.

Most of the time we are in fast thinking mode and automatically do things without thinking. Slow thinking consumes a lot more energy. :lol: After a couple of hours in the forum, I have to take a nap. Slow thinking is the real thinking that separates us from other animals.

Slow thinking is best when we learn the higher-order thinking skills.

Higher-order thinking, known as higher order thinking skills (HOTS), is a concept of education reform based on learning taxonomies (such as Bloom's taxonomy). The idea is that some types of learning require more cognitive processing than others, but also have more generalized benefits. In Bloom's taxonomy, for example, skills involving analysis, evaluation and synthesis (creation of new knowledge) are thought to be of a higher order than the learning of facts and concepts which requires different learning and teaching methods. Higher-order thinking involves the learning of complex judgmental skills such as critical thinking and problem solving.

Higher-order thinking is more difficult to learn or teach but also more valuable because such skills are more likely to be usable in novel situations (i.e., situations other than those in which the skill was learned). — wikipedia

I would say being capable of thinking does not automatically result in good thinking. Education is very important to good thinking.

Let us be clear, reading the Bible does not equal becoming a good thinker. We can hold an understanding of the Bible without higher-order thinking skills. In fact, the 2012 Texas Republic agenda was to prevent education in higher-order thinking skills.

I would say being capable of thinking does not automatically result in good thinking. Education is very important to good thinking.

Let us be clear, reading the Bible does not equal becoming a good thinker. We can hold an understanding of the Bible without higher-order thinking skills. In fact, the 2012 Texas Republic agenda was to prevent education in higher-order thinking skills. — Athena

Slow thinking requires logically developing critical thinking from the need to problem solve. The law of the excluded middle or non-contradiction is necessary for slow thinking. Without it a person become a political thinker or parrots talking points.

However the law of the INCLUDED middle rather than the excluded middle is necessary for the seeker of truth who realizes the need for the experience of truth is more important than the temporary need to solve a problem. The law of the included middle requires opening to a higher quality of reason than the law of the excluded middle

It is even known now on certain levels of education. The goal is to unite the superficial understanding of the law of the excluded middle with the higher psychological potential of putting lower understanding into a higher perspective. Where the law of the excluded middle is scientific reasoning, the law of the included middle makes biblical contradictions understandable from higher intellectual perspective.

The world as I know it is not ready to open to what makes a higher perspective possible and is content to argue the value of fragments. Yet there are those who are aware of the law of the included middle. These are the people I try to learn from as I strive to understand what it means to reason.

http://esoteric.msu.edu/Reviews/NicolescuReview.htm

After reading Nicolescu's Manifesto of Transdisciplinarity, it is hard to imagine how any thinking person could retreat to the old, safe, comfortable conceptual framework. Taking a series of ideas that would be extremely thought-provoking even when considered one by one, the Romanian quantum physicist Basarab Nicolescu weaves them together in a stunning vision, this manifesto of the twenty-first century, so that they emerge as a shimmering, profoundly radical whole.

Nicolescu’s raison d’être is to help develop people’s consciousness by means of showing them how to approach things in terms of what he calls “transdisciplinarity.” He seeks to address head on the problem of fragmentation that plagues contemporary life. Nicolescu maintains that binary logic, the logic underlying most all of our social, economic, and political institutions, is not sufficient to encompass or address all human situations. His thinking aids in the unification of the scientific culture and the sacred, something which increasing numbers of persons, will find to be an enormous help, among them wholistic health practitioners seeking to promote the understanding of illness as something arising from the interwoven fabric—body, plus mind, plus spirit—that constitutes the whole human being, and academics frustrated by the increasing pressure to produce only so-called “value-free” material.

Transdisciplinarity “concerns that which is at once between the disciplines, across the different disciplines, and beyond all discipline,” and its aim is the unity of knowledge together with the unity of our being: “Its goal is the understanding of the present world, of which one of the imperatives is the unity of knowledge.” (44) Nicolescu points out the danger of self-destruction caused by modernism and increased technologization and offers alternative ways of approaching them, using a transdisciplinary approach that propels us beyond the either/or thinking that gave rise to the antagonisms that produced the problems in the first place. The logic of the included middle permits “this duality [to be] transgressed by the open unity that encompasses both the universe and the human being.” (56). Thus, approaching problems in a transdisciplinary way enables one to move beyond dichotomized thinking, into the space that lies beyond.

Nicolescu calls on us to rethink everything in terms of what quantum physics has shown us about the nature of the universe. Besides offering an alternative to thinking exclusively in terms of binary logic, and showing how the idea of the logic of the included middle can afford hitherto unimagined possibilities, he also introduces us to the idea that Reality is not something that exists on only one level, but on many, and maintains that only transdisciplinarity can deal with the dynamics engendered by the action of several levels of Reality at once. It is for this reason that transdisciplinarity is radically distinct from multidisciplinarity and interdisciplinarity, although it is often confused with both. Moreover, because of the fact that reality has more than a single level, binary logic, the logic that one uses to cross a street and avoid being hit by a truck, cannot possibly be applied to all of the levels. It simply does not work. Nicolescu explains it is only the logic of the included middle that can be adequate for complex situations, like those we must confront in the educational, political, social, religious and cultural arenas. As he writes, “The transdisciplinary viewpoint allows us to consider a multidimensional Reality, structured by multiple levels replacing the single-level, one-dimensional reality of classical thought.........” (49)

I found the ideas of Niscolescu very helpful as my understanding of reality is certainly multidimensional. I also think that the whole idea of the middle is essential, as it seems that binary thinking, as extremes seem so limiting. In particular, I feel that a lot of people tend to prefer a clear pessimist or optimist approach both seem mistaken. I think that we need to find the balance in how we see most aspects of life, in order for be able to think clearly. Obviously, we don't just want a watered down version of reality, but it seems to be about juxtaposing opposites in a careful and intricate way in our perception and philosophical quest.

I believe that you are correct in focusing on Cicero and, when you suggest that all religions are the same, I think that you are pointing to the way in which there are central importance teachings underlying most of them. Probably some of the teachings have been distorted in the implementation by organised religion, but the original teachers had a certain vision. It is likely that the distortions, as well as valid philosophy questions which turned people away, and it may be that are moving into a time of religio, as suggested by @Anand-Haqq

I do believe that it is important for us to draw upon the best of all traditions of thought, religious and secular. Also, you point to the whole issue of male domination and it does seem that Western and some other religions have been served a patriarchal society. However, there is a whole tradition of the goddess. It may be that the idea of the goddess preceded the Judaeo-Christian image of God as Jahweh.This may be a lost, repressed aspect of religion. Certainly, some anthropologists, such as Chris Knight, have pointed to a matriarchy prior to a patriarchy.

I do believe that apart from asking why we need religious beliefs, the whole history of religion is also important. This includes understanding how the ideas were established. It also involves the complex relationship between mainstream teachings and esoteric ones. What I find is that the more I try to write, the more aware I become of the need to read so much more, because there is so much to discover.

↪Nikolas
I found the ideas of Niscolescu very helpful as my understanding of reality is certainly multidimensional. I also think that the whole idea of the middle is essential, as it seems that binary thinking, as extremes seem so limiting. In particular, I feel that a lot of people tend to prefer a clear pessimist or optimist approach both seem mistaken. I think that we need to find the balance in how we see most aspects of life, in order for be able to think clearly. Obviously, we don't just want a watered down version of reality, but it seems to be about juxtaposing opposites in a careful and intricate way in our perception and philosophical quest. — Jack Cummins

The middle can be understood as a balance between extremes and is often the secular perspective. Dr Nicolescu is describing the middle in the law of the included middle as including the extremes from a higher conscious perspective. Where the law of the excluded middle or non-contradiction refers to one level of reality, the law of the included middle describes how the extremes are united as one from higher conscious level of reality.

The base of triangle creates the two extremes. They are reconciled or exist as one at a higher reality or the apex of the triangle.

I know that you are talking about the higher consciousness but do you think that the balance of opposites is different to the one in real life?Do you not think we can climb the triangle to the highest state to enable us to find the answers?Or does that involve such dangers as going trying to go beyond good and evil? I am wondering about the Buddhist middle way, or am I jumbling up all the jigsaw pieces?

↪Nikolas
I know that you are talking about the higher consciousness but do you think that the balance of opposites is different to the one in real life?Do you not think we can climb the triangle to the highest state to enable us to find the answers?Or does that involve such dangers as going trying to go beyond good and evil? I am wondering about the Buddhist middle way, or am I jumbling up all the jigsaw pieces? — Jack Cummins

What you refer to as the real world is the world of dualism on which all these interactions of life take place mechanically on one level of reality. I believe there is a greater reality within which a person can consciously experience this duality and not be a part of it. It is like a mother looking down at her kids playing in the sandbox. Man has the power to observe himself in war for example. The two sides are fighting but the real winner is the descending aspect of the third force. Watch how Simone describes our situation in her famous essay on the Iliad:

http://www.holoka.com/pdf-files/weil.pdf

1. The true hero, the true subject matter, the center of the Iliad is force. The force that men wield, the force
that subdues men, in the face of which human flesh shrinks back. The human soul seems ever conditioned by its ties with force, swept away, blinded by the force it believes it can control, bowed under the
constraint of the force it submits to. Those who have supposed that force, thanks to progress, now belongs to the past, have seen a record of that in Homer’s poem; those wise enough to discern the force at
the center of all human history, today as in the past, find in the Iliad the most beautiful and flawless of
mirrors.
2. Force is that which makes a thing of whoever submits to it. Exercised to the extreme, it makes the
human being a thing quite literally, that is, a dead body. Someone was there and, the next moment, no
one. The Iliad never tires of presenting us this tableau:
... the horses
made the swift chariots thunder along the paths of war
in mourning for their blameless drivers. On the earth
they lie, much dearer to the vultures than to their wives.
11.159–62
3. The hero is a thing dragged in the dust behind a chariot:
... All around, the black hair
was spread, and the whole head lay in the dust,
just before so charming; now Zeus has granted
to his enemies to debase it on his native land.
22.401–4
4. We taste the bitterness of such a tableau undiluted, mitigated by no comforting lie, no consoling expectation of immortality, no faded nimbus of glory or patriotism.
His soul flies from his limbs, goes to Hades,
grieving its destiny, relinquishing its strength and youth.
22.362–63
5. Still more moving and painfully contrastive is the sudden evoking and immediate effacing of another world, the distant, fragile, touching world of peace, of the family, a world where each man means
more than anything to those around him.
She called to her fair-haired servants in the house
to put by the fire a large tripod, in order that there might be
a warm bath for Hector on his return from combat.
So naive! She knew not that far indeed from warm baths
Achilles’ arm had beaten him down, because of green-eyed Athena.
22.442–46
6. Truly, he was far from warm baths, that hapless man. Nor was he alone. Nearly all of the Iliad takes
place far from warm baths. Nearly all human life has always taken place far from warm baths.
7. The force that kills is summary and crude. How much more varied in operation, how much more
stunning in effect is that other sort of force, that which does not kill, or rather does not kill just yet. It will
kill for a certainty, or it will kill perhaps, or it may merely hang over the being it can kill at any instant; in
all cases, it changes the human being into stone. From the power to change a human being into a thing by
making him die there comes another power, in its way more momentous, that of making a still living
human being into a thing. He is living, he has a soul; he is nonetheless a thing. Strange being—a thing
with a soul; strange situation for the soul! Who can say how it must each moment conform itself, twist
and contort itself? It was not created to inhabit a thing; when it compels itself to do so, it endures violence through and through..................................................

What is this force which controls mechanical duality and makes puppets or losers of everyone in war ? As I understand it, the only ascending force which obstructs the descending force of creation is the ascending force of grace or conscious evolution returning to its source.

War my be a necessity to serve the needs of nature but a conscious human being need not serve nature but can return to its source. Of course it is easier said than done. The world doesn't want to let you go.

But beginning to outgrow dualism and experiencing the triune nature of our universe opens new doors for those willing to open their minds to explore it and begin to understand why everything is as it is.

Yes, I didn't think that your triangle should mean that people should just stay at the bottom. In many ways, dualistic thinking seems to be the illusory way of conventional thinking. It does seem that most philosophies which stress some kind of evolution of consciousness, or even initiation do see beyond binary thinking. Or, if nothing else, they see opposites as more intricately involved, like the yin and yang symbol, in which the complementary parts are reflected in the circles of the two halves. I am also thinking of how Jung spoke of the path of individuation as being one in which one opposites are faced on the path towards conscious wholeness.

Wow-what a nice way of explaining. Are you coming from Eastern culture? And I like what Jack Cummins said about getting beyond binary thinking.

I have an 8 A.M. appointment for swimming and I am going to enjoy so much contemplating what the two of you have said while I exercise. Thank you for a wonderful start to this day.

↪Nikolas
Wow-what a nice way of explaining. Are you coming from Eastern culture? And I like what Jack Cummins said about getting beyond binary thinking.

I have an 8 A.M. appointment for swimming and I am going to enjoy so much contemplating what the two of you have said while I exercise. Thank you for a wonderful start to this day. — Athena

Thanks Athena. A lot of my ideas are influenced by what has been called Esoteric or inner Christianity which is not the same as the exoteric or outer Christianity you dislike and popular in society.

I'll be interested to learn the questions you come up with.

@Jack Cummins

By far the best definition of ‘religion’ I’ve come across is Clifford Geertz’s: https://www.wabashcenter.wabash.edu/syllabi/w/wattles/geertzppt2.htm

From his book ‘Interpretations of Cultures’: http://staff.uny.ac.id/sites/default/files/pendidikan/poerwanti-hadi-pratiwi-spd-msi/cliffordgeertztheinterpretationofculturesbookfiorg.pdf

I read this in combination with Levi-Strauss’ ‘Structural Anthropology’ and Eliade’s ‘The Sacred and The Profane’.

Levi-Strauss is clinical and dry, Eliade - in this particular work - surprisingly expressive compared to other scholarly works of his, and Geertz more like the cool kid on the block (a bit too opinionated and a tad of bias shining through).

To refer more to Eliade’s use of terminology, ‘religion’ is innate in that we all possess a certain foundation upon which we base our interpretations of experiences that come our way (the ‘cosmological’ view, Jungian ‘axis mundi’ AND/OR the ‘weltanschuuang’).

Upturn someone’s sense of reality and they will refuse to accept it regardless of what their senses and are exposed to. Blind people can accept the concept of ‘colour’ yet some people who are sighted may deny the existence of ‘colour’. Like with any serious paradigm shift not everyone is willing/able to take it in their stride. It is a necessary mechanism for mapping out the world - without a map there is no ‘world’ to speak of, so when people have used certain ideas to orientate themselves they’re either extremely unwilling to remove them, or more likely, simply unable to as it would literally tear them asunder.

The anthropology of religion is an area I find fascinating. I have read Eliade's, 'The Sacred and the Profane'. I have dipped into Levi Strauss, but I find his writing a bit dry too. Have you read, 'Purity and Danger', by Mary Douglas?

Jung's ideas have been the most inspiring for me. One work which I regard of central importance is his, 'Answer to Job', for its whole analysis and interpretation of the Judeo-Christian image of God. Also, I like his whole understanding of Eastern religions.

Really, I like reading around the whole area of symbolism, including the writings of Joseph Campbell, as well as Rudolf Otto's approach to numinousity. I am also fascinated by many esoteric writers, especially Rudolf Steiner.

@Jack Cummins Looks like we have similar interests.

Oh my, on my way to the pool I listened to beautiful violin music and thought of what you said and the Greeks focus on beauty and good music and Mayan gods and math. I am hesitant to be open about this because I am in the minority and have been attacked for my thoughts. But let us speak of music and transformation.

There is evidence that classical music results in better plant health. Music has been used for healing people. I certainly felt good as I listened to the music while driving to the pool and with your post in mind my question is- can music transform us? What exactly is transformation? Is it just emotional or also physical?

There is a lot of talk about the plasticity of our brains. Music and also meditation can change our brain waves.

:grin: I have to return to reading "The Mayan Factor" and Jose Arguelles's explanation of the transformation humans and the planet are experiencing. What he says is really far out there and weird to our modern minds, but did he discover a truth we should know?

↪Nikolas Oh my, on my way to the pool I listened to beautiful violin music and thought of what you said and the Greeks focus on beauty and good music and Mayan gods and math. I am hesitant to be open about this because I am in the minority and have been attacked for my thoughts. But let us speak of music and transformation.

There is evidence that classical music results in better plant health. Music has been used for healing people. I certainly felt good as I listened to the music while driving to the pool and with your post in mind my question is- can music transform us? What exactly is transformation? Is it just emotional or also physical?

There is a lot of talk about the plasticity of our brains. Music and also meditation can change our brain — Athena

Music by itself cannot result in transformation or evolution of a person's being like the transformation of the being of a caterpillar into a moth. However it can serve to remind us emotionally of what we search for at the depths of our being when not caught up in daily life effecting our personality or outer nature. Sacred music like choir music can sometimes have this effect by slowing us down into spiritual contemplation

Music is vibration. The structure of our universe is the lawful expression of vibrations we can interpret as music. The effect of music can raise or lower our vibrations as well as animal and plant life which hears it. The study of music is a big topic but begins with the knowledge of vibrations. Does this make sense to you.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/kyb/kyb11.htm

"Nothing rests; everything moves; everything
vibrates."--The Kybalion.

The great Third Hermetic Principle--the Principle of Vibration--embodies the truth that Motion is manifest in everything in the Universe--that nothing is at rest--that everything moves, vibrates, and circles. This Hermetic Principle was recognized by some of the early Greek philosophers who embodied it in their systems. But, then, for centuries it was lost sight of by the thinkers outside of the Hermetic ranks. But in the Nineteenth Century physical science re-discovered the truth and the Twentieth Century scientific discoveries have added additional proof of the correctness and truth of this centuries-old Hermetic doctrine.

The Hermetic Teachings are that not only is everything in constant movement and vibration, but that the "differences" between the various manifestations of the universal power are due entirely to the varying rate and mode of vibrations. Not only this, but that even THE ALL, in itself, manifests a constant vibration of such an infinite degree of intensity and rapid motion that it may be practically considered as at rest, the teachers directing the attention of the students to the fact that even on the physical plane a rapidly moving object (such as a revolving wheel) seems to be at rest. The Teachings are to the effect that Spirit is at one end of the Pole of Vibration, the other Pole being certain extremely gross forms of Matter. Between these two poles are millions upon millions of different rates and modes of vibration.....................

I have read 'The Mayan Factor,' by Jose Arguelles.
It is an inspiring book. One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests.

Sorry that my reply to you is brief, but I have been busy writing on threads. However, what I wish to say that I am interested in your discussion of Hermeticism. I have believed that this is a central but overlooked aspect of philosophy. I have gathered some literature on the topic, but just trying to find the time to read it all. Today, I have been reading some of the book I mentioned to you a while ago, in relation to your thread discussion on Plato's forms, 'The Physics of Transfigured Light: The Imaginal Realm and the Foundations of Science' by Leon Marvell. I am also interested in hermeticism in relation to the tradition of alchemy. Another tradition which I believe is extremely important is Rosicrucianism.

↪Nikolas
Sorry that my reply to you is brief, but I have been busy writing on threads. However, what I wish to say that I am interested in your discussion of Hermeticism. I have believed that this is a central but overlooked aspect of philosophy. I have gathered some literature on the topic, but just trying to find the time to read it all. Today, I have been reading some of the book I mentioned to you a while ago, in relation to your thread discussion on Plato's forms, 'The Physics of Transfigured Light: The Imaginal Realm and the Foundations of Science' by Leon Marvell. I am also interested in hermeticism in relation to the tradition of alchemy. Another tradition which I believe is extremely important is Rosucrucianism. — Jack Cummins

In all that you've read, I'd be interested to learn what is the one idea that reconciles all these opinions as ONE?

I am not sure if I can narrow down to the most important idea, but it is a good question, so I will have a think and get back to you.

I have read 'The Mayan Factor,' by Jose Arguelles.
It is an inspiring book. One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests. — Jack Cummins

Good grief another book I need to read. I so want to know of that of which you speak. At this point in time, it is beyond my comprehension.

How did you come to read "The Mayan Factor"? I think few people have. I was very distressed by how intensely people in science forums rejected the book. But things like harmonics are part of science and worth discussion. Understanding the matrix (any matrix) and how they are used to reveal information seems very important to me. I decided the science community in forums is no better than the church of old with their narrow vision and intolerance of unfamiliar information. I think that narrow vision and intolerance have retarded our sciences and leaves us excessively materialistic.

You are such an exciting person to know because you know so much about so many things. I had to lookup Hermetism and I am blown away by all this involves. I bolded the words that stand out as most important to what is happening today. We are in another period of resistance to the dominance of either pure rationality or doctrinal faith.

In Late Antiquity, Hermetism[18] emerged in parallel with early Christianity, Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, the Chaldaean Oracles, and late Orphic and Pythagorean literature. These doctrines were "characterized by a resistance to the dominance of either pure rationality or doctrinal faith."[19] — Wikipedia

I have to add this quote from the same Wikipedia explanation.

Thinkers like Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463–1494) supposed that this 'ancient theology' could be reconstructed by studying (what were then considered to be) the most ancient writings still in existence, such as those of Hermes, but also those of, e.g., Zoroaster, Orpheus, Pythagoras, Plato, the 'Chaldeans', or the Kaballah.[11 — Wikipedia

I am excited by Pythagoras, Kaballah, and "The Mayan Factor" because of the use of math in all of them. I would love a summer camp with teachers who could explain each one and then have a comparison study of them. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all of us could meet at such a summer camp?

Yes, there are so many interesting books to read. I keep finding them, e-books and paper ones, and I have been given plenty of recommendations on this forum. The world of reading is like a maze of treasures. I think that the many people I know think that I am rather strange doing all the reading which I do. I have thought that I wouldn't mind working in a library, but my mother thinks it wouldn't work. She thinks that I would be too tempted to read the books rather than stack them on shelves and would get into deep conversations with the customers.

I can't remember when I read 'The Mayan Factor' but I have always gravitated towards unusual books. It is a pity that we are all situated in different countries, but just imagine a summer camp. It would be so surreal. What has happened to me on several occasions Is I have dreams in which I am reading and responding to threads on the site which don't even exist. When lockdown eases I do plan to go to some talks or workshops, and the more alternative the better. It is good that you are able to go swimming as just about everything is still closed here. But, I am trying to make best use of the time, and it has certainly given so much time for critical reflection.

One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests. — Jack Cummins

I remember when I read Cosmic Consciousness I was struck by the idea that these experiences of cosmic consciousness happen around mid life. From an astrological perspective we are opposite of essence influences we were born with. This raises the contradictions in our being which invite this experience.

Hermeticism isn't popular since it requires more than binary thought. Have you pondered Hermes Emerald Tablet? This site has several translations including one by Helena Blavatskia Does it make sense to you?

https://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm

From Madame Blavatsky

2) What is below is like that which is above, and what is above is similar to that which is below to accomplish the wonders of the one thing.
3) As all things were produced by the mediation of one being, so all things were produced from this one by adaption.
4) Its father is the sun, its mother the moon.
6a) It is the cause of all perfection throughout the whole earth.
7) Its power is perfect if it is changed into earth.
7a) Separate the earth from the fire, the subtile from the gross, acting prudently and with judgement.
8 ) Ascend with the greatest sagacity from earth to heaven, and unite together the power of things inferior and superior;
9) thus you will possess the light of the whole world, and all obscurity will fly away from you.
10) This thing has more fortitude than fortitude itself, because it will overcome every subtile thing and penetrate every solid thing.
11a) By it the world was formed.
[Blavatsky 1972: 507.]