It is interesting that pessimism and asceticism can be linked because in some ways it could give rise to the view that nothing matters and that, therefore, everything is permitted, or this may be more of a modern take on nihilism.

Anyway, its almost midnight, so I am going to log off now, but will reply to any further comments tomorrow.

I am about to log off for the night, but it is an interesting idea that modern philosophy begins with despair.

It is interesting that pessimism and asceticism can be linked because in some ways it could give rise to the view that nothing matters and that, therefore, everything is permitted, or this may be more of a modern take on nihilism. — Jack Cummins

I think this is a misconception of pessimism. Pessimism, is not Big Lebowski-style "Nihilism" (nothing matters/ no ethos). To the contrary, philosophical pessimism is very sensitive to the suffering of the world and others, and thus elevates compassion as the main essence of ethical thinking/actions.

I ruminate briefly on another thread.

Good night, Jack.

I am personally skeptical of whether it’s possible to actually be a philosophical pessimist and still retain a happy mood. After I looked up Schopenhauer’s pessimism and read his ideas about the will, I couldn’t function for well over a month as I constantly ruminated over my desire, how I’ll never be satisfied etc even when I was with friends, eating my favourite foods, or generally having what’s supposed to be a good time. This constant ruminating might just be my own fault, but I don’t understand how someone could reach those conclusions and still have a cheery face without it being in your brain all day.

I think this what separates “the world is hell” kind of pessimism where I’ll consider how many children are starving in Africa and how many terrorists are blowing people up, because I can simply shrug it off since it doesn’t personally affect my life. Schopenhauer’s ideas if they’re true are constantly affecting everyone all the time

I'll start by defining pessimism and optimism as a lenience or bias towards hopeful or despairing thinking and defining hope and despair as a subjective interpretation of some uncertainty. Because you can't hold hope or despair on subjects made certain, you cannot be pessimistic or optimistic about certainties either.

I think pessimism and optimism is a way for us to categorically organize uncertainty quickly. in daily life, it is not realistic to consider every future possibility in every situation, for example. Instead what we can do, is consider an extremely pessimistic view and an extremely optimistic view, one at a time. Once we have created those two views, we can ballpark the actual future to be somewhere in-between them. (This isn't the only way to organize uncertain information, merely one way.)

People also have a biological tendency to gravitate their attention towards "bad" things than "good" things. Which may explain why philosophers might start from pessimistic views. They just have an easier time thinking of the bad things first. Additionally, philosophy is complex (and uncertain) enough that I wouldn't be surprised if they just get stuck trying to form an accurate pessimistic view, and we never get to creating an optimistic view.

In conclusion, pessimism is the best starting point for thinking generally just because we gravitate easier to it instinctively. However you probably are just hurting yourself if you are only pessimistically thinking about something you will never finish thinking about.

I am personally skeptical of whether it’s possible to actually be a philosophical pessimist and still retain a happy mood. — Albero

Accurate. But sometimes a pessimistic philosopher does not depend on being happy or sad. I guess he is realistic but with a sense of negativism avoiding all kind of romanticism.
It is true is hard to be this kind of philosopher and randomly still happy for what the future/life holds. It would sound weird and without sense. Nevertheless, I think a pessimistic person is not forced to stay in a sadness behavior to think about "pessimism"
For example: I can talk to you and say:

I am not seeing a good goal in my life so I just here I do not know if I will get it or do it. I am a loser

Probably as you say this would sound so pessimistic but for me is just my realistic life but without sadness.

This constant ruminating might just be my own fault, but I don’t understand how someone could reach those conclusions and still have a cheery face without it being in your brain all day. — Albero

Interesting statement. I guess this also happens because we don't know yet what happiness actually means. Probably for someone getting those conclusions make them having a cheery face because they understand is impossible having a fulfilled life and it is ok too (?)

It all boils down to, is a matter of, life and death.

Pessism keeps you from an untimely death, optimism keeps you from a full life.

Imagine two people, X an optimist, Y a pessimist in a jungle. They hear leaves rustling in the bushes behind them. X, the optimist, thinks it's a cute little bunny rabbit and Y, the pessimist, thinks it's a ravenous jaguar. Who, X or Y, is likely to survive given this scenario repeats with a sylvan rhythm over the course of these two's jungle adventure?

That said, pessimism tends to wreak havoc on people's moods and I believe, some say, long-term melancholia shortens life-span. In saying this I'm bracketing out the benefits of never being disappointed that comes with adopting a pessimistic stance in life.

Imagine two people, X an optimist, Y a pessimist in a jungle. They hear leaves rustling in the bushes behind them. X, the optimist, thinks it's a cute little bunny rabbit and Y, the pessimist, thinks it's a ravenous jaguar. Who, X or Y, is likely to survive given this scenario repeats with a sylvan rhythm over the course of these two's jungle adventure? — TheMadFool

This example is important and perfect. Here we see how literally Y the pessimistic survives better in the jungle because he prefers to being more open up to all bad circumstances than the optimistic one. Furthermore, Y will always win because if there is a rabbit no problem at all and they keep going. If it is a dangerous jaguar at least he was in defense position due to he was expecting the worse. But the success of X is thin just a 50 %. If it is a rabbit everything will be OK but what about if it is a dangerous jaguar? He would be lost or dead because he wasn't expecting that.

So... I guess pessimistic persons tend to be more realistic and ready of what can the life bring to us. Romanticism or positivism could drive us in painful situations as deception or heart breaking, etc...

Pessism keeps you from an untimely death, optimism keeps you from a full life. — TheMadFool

Being clinically paranoid could also keep you from an untimely death. But the question for me isn't just whether you survive, it is what kind of life you live and what else you might be missing owing to such tendencies.

And then there's the issue of the jungle metaphor. Is that really a useful analogue for what we call real life? What is the equivalent of a dangerous jaguar? I can see some potential contenders but I really can't see a great advantage to pessimism. Advocacy for pessimism often sounds to me like the teenager who says, "I'm not going to fall in love so I can never get hurt.'

Being clinically paranoid could also keep you from an untimely death. But the question for me isn't just whether you survive, it is what kind of life you live and what else you might be missing owing to such tendencies.

And then there's the issue of the jungle metaphor. Is that really a useful analogue for what we call real life? What is the equivalent of a dangerous jaguar? I can see some potential contenders but I really can't see a great advantage to pessimism. Advocacy for pessimism often sounds to me like the teenager who says, "I'm not going to fall in love so I can never get hurt.' — Tom Storm

Can you give me your email address? :joke:

I am glad that you can see the link between pessimism and mood. I am definitely not in favour of a whole empty philosophy of happiness but sometimes when I read too much in the direction of nihilism I find that I sink into melancholia. The term is not used that much now, or certainly not within psychiatry. However, going back to my time as a teenager, reading in a library, I can remember reading, 'The Anatomy of Melancholy', by Robert Burton.

I do think that it is easy for a general sense of disappointment in life to overlap with a whole philosophy of pessimism, and it seems that the two can collude together. Generally, I think those who experience more unhappiness are more likely to gravitate towards a pessimistic philosophy. I think it is how far one decides to go, because it can become a downward spiral.

However, perhaps it is also important to acknowledge the pits of despair. One of my favourite quotes from Carl Jung is, 'I live in my deepest hell and from there I cannot fall any further.' One idea which Jung refers to is the idea of enantiodromia by Heraclitus, which refers to the way in which when one of the poles is reached to the extreme, there is often a natural swing to the opposite one. Certainly, I find that if I get into a really negative state, it often seems that at some point, I swing to the a really positive swing. But, I am aware of people who seem to live most of the time in a state of negativity or positivity. I feel that I have a constant battle within myself between a general outlook of pessimism and optimism.

I have been reading, 'The Essays of Arthur Schopenhauer: Studies in Pessimism, ' this morning and found it a good book to read. One aspect which I was quite surprised by was the way he sees Christianity as a form of pessimism, in its whole emphasis upon sin. Having been brought up within the tradition of Christianity, I had never really thought about it as a pessimistic philosophy. However, I certainly have worried about sinfulness.

Generally, I have read more in psychology than philosophy about despair, especially in depth psychology. One book which stands out for me is, 'Suicide and the Soul,' by James Hillman which looks at the whole experience of despair. I have known people who have committed suicide and I have also worked with people who are suicidal in mental health care and it does seem that it is necessary to enable people who are feeling despairing and suicidal to understand the depths of despair, rather than just short circuit into an attempt to fight the negative. I do think that the philosophy of pessimism can probably do this to some extent, almost as a form of consolation.

I am inclined to think we all need to find the right balance between pessimism and optimism. Certainly, I feel that I need to juggle them to adjust to the fluctuations in my own mental state. I find that I need both the insights of pessimistic philosophy, as well as some positive thinking to make sense of life, like the yin and the yang.

I am surprised that you could not function for about a month after reading Schopenhauer's ideas, especially on desire. I read his essays on pessimism this morning and feel perfectly okay. However, I have probably read many other writers on desires, and I was brought up with Christianity, so I probably reached the climax of such thinking a long while ago.

It is hard sometimes to face the world with 'a cheery face' when faced with a pessimistic philosophy. However, I do think our own life circumstances do affect mood so much. Even then, situations in the world can affect us. I find that if I watch a lot of news I get rather downcast, but, at the same time, I do want to be aware of what is going on. I don't want to be living in some kind of balloon floating over the world, oblivious to suffering.

This is your first post, so welcome to the forum. You make some important points, especially in saying that the question of pessimism and optimism seems to be one arising in facing uncertainty. It does seem that it is this which gives a need for approaching life with an optimistic or pessimistic viewpoint.

I do think that you are right to say that it is a matter of disposition. You say that you feel that the best starting point is pessimism. I am still a bit divided, thinking that both are important ways of seeing. I feel that it is worth zooming on each at different times. I am not sure if that means that I am just sitting on the fence. However, I believe in the importance of seeing problems with as much realism as possible. However, I do like to approach them with a certain amount of positivity too.

I do think that the philosophy of pessimism can probably do this to some extent, almost as a form of consolation. — Jack Cummins

Yes, to reiterate your point, I think that pessimists should form "Communities of Catharsis" groups to vent about the suffering and see each other as "fellow sufferers", which is a term Schop wrote about in how we should address each other to remind us that we are part of the same scheme.

I have been in some experiential psychotherapy groups which seem to operate along those lines. But, we can also ask to what extent is moaning useful? Also, if done in a group rather than complaining about life it can become a matter of complaining about each other.

I have been in some experiential psychotherapy groups which seem to operate along those lines. But, we can also ask to what extent is moaning useful? Also, if done in a group rather than complaining about life it can become a matter of complaining about each other. — Jack Cummins

Yes, that would make our Communities of Catharsis different than psychotherapy or something like that. Psychotherapy is going to just say, "Don't complain, you have to get better.." and Communities of Catharsis would be 100% for complaining as much as you want an not feeling judged. That's the difference. I know the strategy of the modern day is to say that it is the individual who has to "Shape up" and adapt, but CoC will allow for fellow pessimists to gripe about the unescapable existential situation and feel better that others have allowed for them to freely crap on the existential situation at hand.. It is actually quite opposite of most types of therapy which do not like complaining.. and you don't have to reiterate that point, cause I get they don't and thinks its not helpful, etc. There's just two different goals and outlooks in these groups so its no use comparing it really.

As far as complaining about each other, I guess groundrules would have to be put up that this is about other problems outside the people in the group itself.

Of course, Freud's original idea was really one of catharsis, rather than of telling people that they should get better. Freud's philosophy was fairly pessimistic too.

I do believe that the arts, especially writing are a form of ventilating the experience of suffering. Diaries and journals can be a way of exploring difficulties. I have just come across a relevant quote from Kafka:
'I don't mean, of course, that my life is better when I don't write. Rather, it is much worse then and wholly unbearable and has to end in madness.'

One book which I believe is essential for understanding suffering and absurdity is Colin Wilson's, 'The Outsider'. He looks at the life and suffering of many creative individuals, including Nietzsche, Camus and Van Gogh. He does see the experience of suffering as an essential aspect of creativity. However, he does go beyond pessimism in speaking of peak experiences. So, we can ask whether the experience of anguish can give way to the possibility of peak experiences, or heightened states of creativity?

I do believe that the arts, especially writing are a form of ventilating the experience of suffering. Diaries and journals can be a way of exploring difficulties. I have just come across a relevant quote from Kafka:
'I don't mean, of course, that my life is better when I don't write. Rather, it is much worse then and wholly unbearable and has to end in madness.' — Jack Cummins

Yeah, but communal pessimism is an interesting concept I'd like to explore..Pessimism is almost always borne out in one's own head, so the idea of expressing it with others intrigues me- especially considering the hostility it gets from most.

He looks at the life and suffering of many creative individuals, including Nietzsche, Camus and Van Gogh. He does see the experience of suffering as an essential aspect of creativity. However, he does go beyond pessimism in speaking of peak experiences. So, we can ask whether the experience of anguish can give way to the possibility of peak experiences, or heightened states of creativity? — Jack Cummins

You should DEFINITELY read Schopenhauer's ideas of aesthetics, as it looks right up your ally. He believed that the arts and music were small ways people can take to perceive the Forms and "stop" (briefly) the impinging Will. It some how "arrests" the willful nature temporarily to see things in a more "being" state rather than dross becoming of everyday state.

See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer%27s_aesthetics

Schopenhauer probably has the best takes on music I've ever read

Schopenhauer probably has the best takes on music I've ever read — Albero

Definitely. The representation of the Will itself, not just its Forms :D.

So how do you think communal pessimism would take place? Do you think that it would be about people sharing their experiences in a group? I do believe that there would have to be very firm boundaries because group dynamics are so complex. My own experience of groups is that often certain people dominate. Do you think it would need a leader?

I did once take part in a philosophy group which was more about sharing experiences. Of course, in groups some people feel more comfortable about sharing than others, and probably this depends on how much similarity and difference there is amongst the group.

addendum to the absurd ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/511450

sláinte :up:

So how do you think communal pessimism would take place? Do you think that it would be about people sharing their experiences in a group? I do believe that there would have to be very firm boundaries because group dynamics are so complex. My own experience of groups is that often certain people dominate. Do you think it would need a leader? — Jack Cummins

That's a good question. I would imagine it would need a moderator.

I think ground rules are always a good idea in a group setting. I would suggest giving people some time limits to allow everyone to have a chance to share.

I think people can air all the grievances they have with their life, others, situations, etc. Others can say stuff like, "Right on!" and such.. but no negative judgements should be told of the participant during the meeting itself. It's more of a support group, not therapy really. But it's support for existential situation itself, not a particular topic; that's the key thing about it.

My music gets much darker. My pessimistic music includes The Doors, the Jesus and Mary Chain and an ultimate album for being down is Slipknot's, 'When All Hope is Gone.' Actually, I find that extremely dark music can lift my mood significantly, but it has to be the right music at the right time. It is all so subjective, but, personally, when listening to music it can be about transmuting the darkness within. I am probably a bit of a gothic pessimist.

Perhaps it would be Pessimists Anonymous.

Yes, clever name. However, AA is trying to reform people. This is more like everyone has an understanding of the pessimist perspective and so understand everyone is in the same boat and empathizes.

We would definitely need to omit the 12 step approach. Even though you say AA is for reform, I think that some people use it to offload, because many alcoholics probably have very difficult life experiences to share.

We would definitely need to omit the 12 step approach — Jack Cummins

AA is a nice example of pessimism. It says you have a disease that can't be cured and that you will always be powerless. Even the world alcoholic (which Is no longer accepted in many circles) is a rather limited label. I prefer the SMART Recovery model for substance related issues.