But this, I assume, doesn’t apply to your circumcisor, for he, I presume, had no intention of hurting you. You said, of your circumcision, that it was as traumatic as your beating, yet the two men had inherently different motives, so how do you reconcile your theory of intentionally inflicted pain with that? Or do you think your circumcisor was sadistic? — Todd Martin
Since you have admitted the element of intention into our discussion about the trauma of pain, let me give you some examples of that sort of trauma that involved no physical pain whatsoever...yet long-lasting trauma... — Todd Martin
How can you believe in the objective truth about anything if you don’t assume it has a common nature?
— Todd Martin
What do you mean by common nature in this context? I thought we were understanding common nature in discussion as just a short way of saying common human nature regarding how we experience physical pain. — TheHedoMinimalist
So, is it not possible that you just experience pain differently from the way that I experience pain? I don’t see why it’s so implausible to think that people have vastly different ways of experiencing pain. Rather, I find any sort of universalism about human nature and the way humans experience things to be highly implausible as I think people just experience the world in vastly different ways. — TheHedoMinimalist
Notice that, initially, you didn’t say “...universalism about PAIN...”, but rather, “ANY SORT of universalism about HUMAN NATURE, and the ways humans experience THINGS to be highly implausible, as I think people just experience the WORLD in vastly different ways”. Now, had I said that, bright man as you obviously are, wouldn’t you have jumped all over it, accusing me of having made a generalization that I then tried to make look like a statement about something very specific? — Todd Martin
Now, obviously, Mama had been dishonest; but did she realize it? Had she realized it, would she have ever retreated to the shower stall? She thought by doing so she would be telling the truth, and she DID tell the literal truth. But, clearly, the LITERAL truth is not THE TRUTH, a thing my mama didn’t understand or appreciate. — Todd Martin
Segue to your evidence of blue-balls and phantom limbs: yes, ppl obviously experience physical pain in very individual ways...but is this the whole truth about pain? — Todd Martin
Is the traumatic pain you suffered as a “child” being slammed to the ground over and over by a “grown adult” not similar to how my mother was “in the shower” when Shelby called? — Todd Martin
One of these is that she obviously, for some reason (it happened too long ago for me to remember now) did not wish to speak to her friend. — Todd Martin
Notice I said “taking” a shower, not “in the” shower: the genius of Mama’s plot was in the difference b/w taking a shower and being in one. If she had said, “tell her I’m taking a shower”, then I would have discovered Mama naked under a shower of water, soaping it up and all. As it was, since she said “in” the shower, and “shower” stand in for “shower-stall”, all she had to do was walk in fully clothed and BE there, no water flowing, in order to orchestrate her air-tight alibi. — Todd Martin
So, O Hedomenos, where in my analysis have I gone astray? — Todd Martin
you still believe that the literal truth is the whole truth? — Todd Martin
Would you like me to give further examples as evidence that it isn’t? — Todd Martin
If I haven’t offended you, please answer the question whose answer I most looked forward to: what were the traumatic experiences of your life that didn’t involve physical pain? — Todd Martin
My mama did not realize that sometimes it is best to be dishonest. Clearly, it was best that she tell a lie and deceive her friend in order to not hurt her feelings. — Todd Martin
I think it’s also kinda silly that we would think that telling lies as a means of withholding information that the person to whom we lie doesn’t really deserve to know in the first place is bad in any way”,
it is obvious that I agree with you. I don’t think it was bad that Mama had me tell Shelby she was in the shower, and I don’t think it was bad that you told your mama you were at the library. Your alibi was better than my mama’s, because you didn’t have to move, or do anything else, for it to be literally true.
Our difference is, I think, in our conception of what dishonesty is. You think my mama, and you, were not being dishonest in telling your tales, and I think the reason you believe that is because of the pejorative connotation of the word “dishonesty”: dishonesty must be bad. I, on the other hand, believe that dishonesty is sometimes good. The difference between our “intuitions” on the subject might be illustrated by this statement:
“I kinda feel like you are confusing dishonesty with a lack of perfect honesty. — TheHedoMinimalist
I just find it unusual to think that I must tell someone every one of my secrets that may pertain to their question in some manner just to maintain honesty. — TheHedoMinimalist
?A person doesn’t have to tell you everything that you need to know in order to remain honest. — TheHedoMinimalist
Our difference of opinion is, therefore, not due to different intuitions, but rather definitions: I identify honesty with the telling of the “whole” truth, while you identify it with what I would call telling the “convenient” truth. — Todd Martin
Which is it, O Hedomenos: were you honest in your response to your mom because you were literally “at the library”? or were you honest because, — Todd Martin
And, btw, I think you meant to say “...that you WANT to know...”, for, if you withhold information from someone they NEED to know, that becomes morally problematic, doesn’t it? — Todd Martin
hope I have straightened out our dialogue in a more philosophical path, more in the direction you wish it to head. I didn’t want to respond to the other things you said for fear of distracting you from our intellectual discussion — Todd Martin
you and I share an apparent affinity with older women. I have had several relationships with different women throughout my life, and most of them have been older than me, a few much older: my current girlfriend is almost 30 yrs older than I am, and I have been with her more than eight years. — Todd Martin
Well, the “literal” definition of dishonesty is usually understood as telling false information when you know that the information is false. It’s doesn’t extent to a refusal to tell true information. So, that’s my understanding of dishonesty. — TheHedoMinimalist
Now let’s consider this scenario: your mom calls you and asks where you are and, instead of answering, “I’m at the library”, you instead answer, “Why are you asking me that question, Mama? Do you think I would frequent a disreputable establishment, as well as you raised me to discern wholesome from unwholesome places? Do you fear I am heading down the road to perfidy despite the excellent upbringing you gave me to avoid it?” Do you think this answer would have been more or less honest than the one you actually gave? — Todd Martin
Honesty is mostly about telling the truth as you understand it. — TheHedoMinimalist
For example, if your mom asks you, as she’s leaving the house, to sweep the floors, and while she’s gone you sweep all the dirt under the rugs, you have already been dishonest without ever saying, “I swept the floors”. Indeed, she would have no reason to ask you whether you swept them: she can see whether they are clean or not...unless she fears you may have acted dishonestly. In which case she might suspect you might have swept the dirt under the rugs, and therefore surreptitiously check underneath them.
On the other hand, if you collect the dirt you have swept from the floors and throw it in the trash, then you have acted honestly... without saying a word. — Todd Martin
surely dishonesty is the antonym, that is, the opposite, of honesty. Why, it is so by definition, My Child, is it not? — Todd Martin
when my mom asked if I was at the library, she was just asking about my location — TheHedoMinimalist
You know your mom a lot better than we do: When she asked where you were, did you immediately think, “Mom suspects I’m up to no good”, or did you think rather, “Mom’s just concerned about my well-being, as any mom would be”?
Which is it, O Hedomenos? Doesn’t the honesty of the answer you gave, that you were at the library, depend upon this question? — Todd Martin
Nonetheless, I still think it would be more honest for me to tell her about my girlfriend because I think sharing secrets increases one’s level of honesty. — TheHedoMinimalist
I think that my mom’s motive was either that of curiosity or that of concern for my welfare. — TheHedoMinimalist
it’s usually considered really honest of someone to share their personal desires and insecurities with others but one is not being dishonest by refusing to share those things with others. — TheHedoMinimalist
But whether you should tell your mom about your girlfriend depends on several things, doesn’t it? What if it would upset her? Surely you wouldn’t want that to happen just because of some abstract ideal of an “increased level of honesty” b/w you two? But maybe, though it would upset her, by telling her, you would be sending the subtle message that this is YOUR life, and you’re gonna live it the way you want to, regardless of what she wants. — Todd Martin
And “concern for your welfare” might extend to concern for the sort of women you might be getting involved with? — Todd Martin
As far as curiosity goes, I attempted to argue in my previous post that no one is just curious: there is always a motive, however subtle or hidden, for one asking or exploring. — Todd Martin
who is the one with whom we are willing to share our personal (secret?) desires and insecurities? What is his name, or what do we call him? — Todd Martin
Are you willing to answer it or not? — Todd Martin
with whom would you be willing to share your innermost secrets? — Todd Martin
Is there someone in your life that you trust that much? — Todd Martin
Wouldn’t anyone long to have such a one? If anyone would want to have such a person in their lives, wouldn’t there be a general term we use to describe him, to characterize him (or her)? — Todd Martin
I personally don’t see the value in sharing secrets for their own sake. — TheHedoMinimalist
there’s some secrets that I have that I wouldn’t want to share with anyone. Simply because it wouldn’t have conversational value and there’s no other reason to share it. — TheHedoMinimalist
I wouldn’t share my secrets with anyone who has any power to produce negative outcomes in my life if they knew a particular secret of mine. — TheHedoMinimalist
I have a tendency to share the least about myself with people that I’m closest to. — TheHedoMinimalist
But what does being close to someone mean if you hold something far away from them? If you say,”I am very close with my” mom, or sister or brother or best friend, but withhold secrets that would enable them to understand the character of your soul in its fullness, how close can you be? How can you be close to someone who knows the least about you? — Todd Martin
I would say that you are close to people that you care about the most and would be willing to prioritize their interests over the interests of other people. — TheHedoMinimalist
This kind of closeness doesn’t seem to require to share secrets. — TheHedoMinimalist
so you must do one of a few things: you must suppress the memory of your shameful thoughts or actions deep enough that they barely ever touch your consciousness (and conscience); or you must explain them to yourself (and, perhaps, to others) in a light that makes them look less reprehensible... — Todd Martin
I tend to experience the greatest amount of shame from really mundane things like remembering times when I said something stupid or acted awkwardly — TheHedoMinimalist
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