One day soon, Sutherland says, someone will fill a container with a mix of primordial chemicals, keep it under the right conditions, and watch life emerge. “That experiment will be done.” — Pop
To limit evolution to animate matter suggests a predisposition to a dualistic understanding where life is something separate to the rest of the universe, rather then a monistic understanding of how elements of the universe evolve to life. — Pop
I would also say that the problem in expanding your 'evolutionary test bed' to the whole of the universe is that the distances are too great, and the conditions too extreme in deep space, to allow anything living to survive for the period and circumstances required to get to our Earth.
I personally feel that if the conditions here were the only ones suitable for life to emerge, within many light years of distance, then you basically have to start your speculation about the emergence of life with processes here - and within the timeframes that science has identified for our solar system and planet. — Gary Enfield
I' m inclined to think that "the order" and the "life cells" you see today are a process of evolution, (the end result ) and are not something that emerge on Earth because we had from start a "friendly", ordered and stable planet. — Adughep
The trouble with dismissing the emphasis on Amino Acids and Nucleotides is that those chemicals remain part of the only mechanism that is known to work, and as some Amino Acids do form spontaneously, it is hard to imagine that something would 'strive to achieve' other forms through some 3rd evolutionary process. — Gary Enfield
Frankly I am just looking for something potentially viable, rather than philosophical point scoring.
What I dislike are exponents of certain philosophies that deny evidence which counters their preferred view. — Gary Enfield
I'm glad that you acknowledge self organization in amino acids. This is the foundation of life - where inanimate matter becomes animated. If we then jump from the beginnings of life to its ultimate achievement - human consciousness, I think you will agree that it arises from self organization, for the purpose of self organization. Also all the layers of the system in between are self organizing, as are their component parts - amino acids self organize to form proteins, the self organization of proteins forms cells, the self organization of cells forms organs, etc., etc. When an organ is transplanted, the donor organ is not reconnected to the nervous system, as that is not currently possible. The organ carries on working regardless - it knows what to do as it is self organizing. Systems like the immune system are entirely self organizing. Components like a white blood cell work independently - untethered to a system of control. The entire system as a whole, as well as all of its component parts are self organizing!
How can self organization occur without consciousness? I don't think it can. — Pop
The human "consciousness" is an ordered organization of "living cells" from the result of multiple stages of evolution of multiple complex cells. — Adughep
As you said before bacteria also has "consciousness", but you can not compare it to humans. — Adughep
That might support my idea that the living and complex cells are at base multiple waves of energy or maybe not ? :) — Adughep
The relationship of energy and information = matter, from E=mc2. From this view matter is an emergent property that arises from the relationship of energy and information. — Pop
If we can imagine various amino acids trapped in a membrane, where they have to self organize, and there is a predetermined direction of self organization towards greater complexity, then this provides a model of how cellular proteins might have evolved initially. It is a viable explanation and answers how life might have arisen, but when asked why did this occur? physics can only provide another how explanation. It can not answer why! Physics answers how, not why. The why, however, can be answered by saying that this is how the universe has self organized. — Pop
I am not sure what you want to find. You want to know the purpose of life ? — Adughep
So then "The relationship of energy and information = another state of higher(or different) energy" .Is not necessary that the result to be a higher energy, it can result in a different energy type (lower or higher).
Is the same principle when using a beam of light, if you amplify it and excite the electrons ( you add information) it becomes laser. — Adughep
The same principle applies to cells when they evolve into something new, just with other types of energy level — Adughep
Thanks for this, I was not aware. So if we change either the energy or the information, then a different pattern results. It is still matter - as different waves of energy propagating over something material / or a field. And ultimately everything is really just patterns of energy - pattern upon pattern in a space that is a pattern. Patterns of energy interacting with each other and perhaps changing their information in the process - could this be a fundamental information exchange?
If so then it is"discrete patterns of interacting energy exchanging information" that would have to self organize, as this is what happens in pockets of the universe that are not chaotic. — Pop
I am trying to understand consciousness. I think I have a pretty good understanding in terms of phenomenology psychology, and belief systems, and now am trying to understand how it fits into the big picture / how it creates the big picture. — Pop
In my opinion, what you want is somehow related to finding the purpose of life.Which is a hard subject and might need another topic open. — Adughep
Because of so many energy interactions and no limits, messy energies and particles can always form something new.
"Why" they work like this, for now i dont think there is a logical reason for it.
Is like asking why some "living cells" evolve into dinosaurs or why "living cells" evolve into birds, dogs or humans ? — Adughep
Every why question pertaining to natural phenomena can be answered by self organization ( more or less ). Why does a fish have scales? - self organization. Why does a dinosaur form here and a human there - self organization. Why is the universe just so? - self organization!
What do you think self organization is? — Pop
In my opinion the Universe gives priority on interactions (of any kind) that preserve the old information.And to interactions that destroys "the old information", it makes them start back from basics. — Adughep
I wonder what would happen if we solved the question of anabiosis and actually managed do create it in a lab. I suspect the debate would hardly change. — Tom Storm
We are all chemicals interacting with other chemicals. — Becky
They’ve actually been able to create cells from inorganic “Scientists in Scotland say they have taken their first tentative steps towards creating 'life' from inorganic chemicals potentially defining the new area of 'inorganic biology'.” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110915091625.htm — Becky
It strikes me as amusing that most life on earth remains microbial. We don't seem to care for it. — Tom Storm
Yes, I can see why the information would have to be preserved, and at the same time a closed system would have to move in the direction of greater complexity ( due to the entropic principle outlined earlier ). So the information exchanged becomes more and more complex. Is this process enough then to be captured by evolution and progressed from there to something self sustaining? I suppose, if not, then the process wouldn't survive.
I think what is significant is that it is information that is being exchanged ( as energy or form), and so ultimately it is the exchange of information that must become more complex, and self sustaining? — Pop
you can even say the main purpose of the evolution is to preserve the exchange of information.If some cell did not evolved into something more complex, it means it could not preserve the old information anymore. — Adughep
Can you elaborate on this a little? I can see how all elements of the system must continue to evolve interrelationaly, in order to preserve the system - is this what you mean? This occurs at all levels of the system - each level plays a role in maintaining the whole. Each level solves its own idiomatic problems, this would include buisness and love, but all levels have only one manner of being as a self organizing system in the process of interellational evolution. — Pop
So the information of how the system was effected ( how it changed form ) was preserved, unfortunately not all the story that caused its change of form, is preserved in the form. Still the continuity of information is evident, even though we can not decipher it totally. — Pop
This would mean that the original information that created the system would be preserved in the form of elements of the system somehow. The RNA hypothesis seems pretty strong to me. It did not self replicate, according to Stuart Kauffman, but copied its neighbour RNA, whilst at the same time its neighbour RNA copied it! Its easy to see how out of this relationship DNA could evolve as a double helix of RNA. — Pop
You have two recipients of water: one with water + DNA sample, and second recipient with empty water.
If you put them close(but not real contact) and you spin them using centrifugation, so each sample can emit electromagnetic fields . After some time the electromagnetic result can be replicated into the empty container and after DNA analysis of the empty container, they found DNA is present there as well.
So the conclusion is the DNA from the first container got replicated to the empty container without physical contact, only by electromagnetic fields. — Adughep
I believe that the evolution main purpose is to preserve information, so it can evolve maybe in something better or more complex.It does not matter how you evolve and what caused it(that's why the causes are not stored ), but if you have new information it tries to keep it if it can. — Adughep
However the announcement today from CERN about the discovery of a new, previously undetected, force exerting a mysterious influence of unknown origin - could be the first evidence of that missing factor to explain everything we have been talking about! — Gary Enfield
However the announcement today from CERN about the discovery of a new, previously undetected, force exerting a mysterious influence of unknown origin - could be the first evidence of that missing factor to explain everything we have been talking about!
— Gary Enfield
I cant see anything on their website? — Pop
“ Electrical sparks simulated lightning to provide energy. In only about a week’s time, this simple apparatus caused chemical reactions that produced a variety of organic molecules, some of which are the basic building blocks of life, such as amino acids” https://bioprinciples.biosci.gatech.edu/module-1-evolution/origin-of-life/ — Becky
They’ve actually been able to create cells from inorganic “Scientists in Scotland say they have taken their first tentative steps towards creating 'life' from inorganic chemicals potentially defining the new area of 'inorganic biology'.” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110915091625.htm — Becky
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