This seems like a pretty straight-forward verse. Sensual pleasures (sounds, tastes, and sights), greed, and excitement damage our perception organs and mind. I think this means they distract us from our perception of the Tao, which requires quiet contemplation. I guess they are the result of or a reflection of desire. — T Clark
They also classify flavors into five categories which generally match those we use. Maybe the use of these words references division of the natural world into rigid conventional categories. "The five colors blind a person's eyes" might mean that thinking in terms of those categories keeps us from seeing the world directly. I haven’t seen this interpretation anywhere else. — T Clark
This ties in with ' the chase and hunt maddens our hearts'.The eyes should not look frantically. Regarding frantically leaks out vital essence. — T Clark
Therefore, the sage seeks only what he needs, not what he sees (acts in the capacity of his belly, not his eye). So he foregoes that in order to choose this.
I remember as a child being scolded by my mother (who grew up in Singapore) when I dished up a quantity of food I couldn’t finish: “your eyes were too big for your belly”.
All of this refers back to the relation between substance and lack: if we concentrate only on filling our world to the brim, then it leaves no room to appreciate wu in relation to the Tao. — Possibility
It does make a big difference. I do think there are separate experiences being considered here.
I will mull in the idea while considering the other translations. — Valentinus
I see this verse a little differently. I think it has more to do with the fact that when we seek to overwhelm the senses or indulge in excess, we’re unable to appreciate the diverse qualities of the world. — Possibility
Therefore, the sage seeks only what he needs, not what he sees (acts in the capacity of his belly, not his eye). — Possibility
“your eyes were too big for your belly” — Possibility
All of this refers back to the relation between substance and lack: if we concentrate only on filling our world to the brim, then it leaves no room to appreciate wu in relation to the Tao. — Possibility
I think this is right.
Your interpretation is in keeping with that of Ivanhoe's notes concerning V12. — Amity
I went and bought his book. I'm glad you found it. Thanks. — T Clark
I see this verse a little differently. I think it has more to do with the fact that when we seek to overwhelm the senses or indulge in excess, we’re unable to appreciate the diverse qualities of the world.
— Possibility
I guess the difference between my way of seeing it and yours is the distinction between my "perceive the Tao" and your "appreciate the diverse qualities of the world." I guess I would interpret "diverse qualities" as referring to the 10,000 things. That carries through to the other senses described. — T Clark
The distinction between belly and eyes you describe is echoed by some other commentators. Others see things differently. Here's Chen, who includes your interpretation among others:
This is a persistent primitivistic theme in the text—that humans should be contented with the simple pleasures of life (ch. 80) and that the overstimulation of the senses renders them incapable of functioning smoothly...
...According to Wang Pi the issue is between preservation or dissipation of the self. The sage makes things serve him; he does not enslave himself to things. Food, which is for the belly, serves to sustain the body, but the eyes lead us to outside distractions and dissipate the body’s energies.
...We suggest that the symbols of the belly and the eyes go deeper. The belly, representing instinct, the unconscious, and the unopened self, is the seat of life and unity (Gebser: 145). The eyes, opening us to the external world, represent consciousness, sight being the most refined and intellectual of the senses. — T Clark
Where you read substance and lack I see being and non-being; 10,000 things and Tao. I think we're talking about different things, but I'm not sure. — T Clark
The meanings do seem to change in different verses. Maybe it has to do with us having to pursue different paths to approach what is the same. — Valentinus
The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures. — Valentinus
Cut out doors and windows to make a house.
Through its non-being (wu),
There is (yu) the use (yung) of the house. — T Clark
Where you read substance and lack I see being and non-being; 10,000 things and Tao. I think we're talking about different things, but I'm not sure. — T Clark
Most of the discussions I have had along these lines in meat space have been conditioned by impatience of one kind or another. — Valentinus
From my understanding the Tao is the way or course or path of all things.
For this to be effective, or of benefit, we need to see the usefulness of wu, the empty aspect, as well as the yu, the substance. — Amity
To get started - the Tao. Here are some definitions and quotations about the Tao from various sources, including me:
[1] The ground of being
[2] The Tao that cannot be spoken
[3] Oneness is the Tao which is invisible and formless.
[4] Nature is Tao. Tao is everlasting.
[5] The absolute principle underlying the universe
[6] That in virtue of which all things happen or exist
[7] The intuitive knowing of life that cannot be grasped full-heartedly as just a concept — T Clark
The Tao, for me, IS the diverse quality of the world as a relational whole, inclusive of wu. — Possibility
Chen and Wang Pi seem to relate to the text as an ethical position, as if it’s telling the reader how they should behave, what is good and what is bad. This is common practice in relation to ancient metaphysical texts, but I think it’s a mistake to assume that either the text or its author has that kind of authority over us (and I think Lao Tzu makes a disclaimer to this effect in the second verse). — Possibility
..I disagree with the isolated message ‘that humans should be content with the simple pleasures of life’ - I think this is a misunderstanding. Having said that, I do think that contentment with simple pleasures has merit in relation to certain situations, but it cannot stand alone as an instruction for a ‘good’ life. — Possibility
he terms ‘being’ and ‘non-being’ refer to a particular level of awareness, which is often associated with human consciousness. The terms ‘substance’ and ‘lack’ I used in relation to the previous verse because it referred to a different level of awareness - a tangible, observable relation to the world. — Possibility
The difference between ‘the 10,000 things’ and ‘the Tao’ is the same idea again at a more complex level of awareness - but at some point we have to accept that it’s the relation we’re referring to, not two different ‘things’. ‘The 10,000 things’ refers to, but is not, the Tao. And ‘the Tao’ refers to, but is not, the Tao. They’re relative aspects of one absolute. — Possibility
I don't see it as a problem that meanings or use of a word changes in different verses depending on what subject is being addressed. Being and Non-Being can describe different states of affairs. — Amity
When we assess the value or quality of anything e.g. the book, the TTC, we don't just look at the primary objective properties or qualities of it ( the cover, presentation ), we look at the secondary qualities, the subjective ( the reading, the meaning, the subjective interpretations). — Amity
All perspectives count...for their potential value...
Does that sound about right ? — Amity
I prayed to God for a solution to the confusion. He sent me a sage in shining armour who spake thus: — Amity
The nameless Tao is the beginning of Heaven and earth. — Amity
Whose commentary is this? — T Clark
What are your thoughts about it? — T Clark
It just struck me we haven't talked about heaven and earth yet. I went back and checked. Maybe I'll do a post just on that. It's an important idea that I haven't got a good feel for. — T Clark
The Tao, for me, IS the diverse quality of the world as a relational whole, inclusive of wu.
— Possibility
That's where I keep coming up against a wall. The Tao is completely not diverse. It is all one no-thing. The 10,000 things are diverse. You know, 10,000 and all. — T Clark
The TTC clearly intends to provide guidance to rulers about how to lead their country. I don't really see that as an ethical issue, more of a how-to. I wonder if maybe that tone is an artifact of translation from ancient Chinese into English. — T Clark
It just struck me we haven't talked about heaven and earth yet. I went back and checked. Maybe I'll do a post just on that. It's an important idea that I haven't got a good feel for. — T Clark
The Tao is one but not a thing — Possibility
And the TTC is like a self-diagnostic program that can be run on any integrated structure of relations to help refine its operation in relation to the Tao, regardless of the level of awareness, connection or collaboration. — Possibility
I agree that the context of heaven and earth is important. — Valentinus
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Some other translations are more explicit about this. Chen writes “Honors elevate (shang),
Disgraces depress (hsia).” Addis and Lombardo translate “Favour debases us. Afraid when we get it, Afraid when we lose it.” So, success leads to fear and failure leads to fear. — T Clark
Is this a friend of yours? — T Clark
Saige: Sagaxa by any other name would smell as sweet.So, you're saying she smells nice? — T Clark
I read the works as centrally concerned with how to navigate the real world.
There are elements of the mysterious that are important not to exclude. The different translators express different opinions on this dimension. Talking about those matters seems to be the biggest divide in traditions.
So, with that in mind, The Enchiridion or Handbook of Epictetus matches a lot of the imperative quality of the speech even if what the problem is said to be starts from such different beginnings. — Valentinus
The Tao is not a thing, it is an experience. Lao Tzu is leading us to experience the Tao. Maybe the path will be different for different people. — T Clark
According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness, or blessedness) is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or by the fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly. — wiki
What does it mean to see the world as yourself? What does it mean to treasure your body as the world? To see your self as part of the whole, as unified with the Tao? And your body? Again, the use of "self" vs. "body" seems to make a big difference in the meaning. — T Clark
The A.C Muller version gives a different emphasis on the quality of the fear by translating the character of jīng in its meaning: "to startle." — Valentinus
Muller's first line reads: "Accept humiliation as a surprise." The rest of his version is too intent upon drafting a maxim than explaining the text for my liking but the physicality of interpreting the first line is interesting. — Valentinus
The equality of success and failure concerns a connection that doesn't involve how obviously different the results are for us as benefits. — Valentinus
Beyond the shock of humiliation, there is dread for the future. Maybe this verse is about isolation. — Valentinus
Looking more closely at the surprise/fear; body/self thing makes me think I have missed something in this verse. — T Clark
I think there is dread for the future in both success and failure. Or at least Lao Tzu thinks so. I'm not sure what you mean by "isolation" in this context. — T Clark
Why do you ask ? What does it matter ? — Amity
I think that the Tao is not a thing or an experience. It just is. It's the source from which all things come and to which all things return. Lao Tzu poetically guides us in the philosophy...the practice. The 'How to...' — Amity
There is a close connection between those of the West and East. — Amity
What does it mean to see the world as yourself? What does it mean to treasure your body as the world? To see your self as part of the whole, as unified with the Tao? And your body? Again, the use of "self" vs. "body" seems to make a big difference in the meaning.
— T Clark
The individual is part of the whole - see later in post. I am not sure the difference between 'self' and 'body' is the issue here. Both are our concern - the physical and the mental or spiritual aspects. — Amity
Ivanhoe talks of apprehension and reverence. — Amity
S. also sees apprehension and reverence as modes of care.
A central concern to individual bodies and the world. — Amity
when I no longer have a body I am dead. — Amity
I don't understand the instructions. — Valentinus
For me, the inequality between being shamed or being honored is connected to the fear of failing to accomplish a task or duty. Beyond the pain of embarrassment or the pleasure of recognition, what is most scary about the prospect of failure is the withdrawal of trust by others to do something. — Valentinus
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.