Is the sacrifice of pleasure worth becoming able to try to answer such questions? — Nikolas
When the word or verb must appears we need somehow sacrifice something. Probably our own pleasure to confront others. I guess this could be one of the steps to promote a community.What must I do?
:clap: :fire: :100:What makes you think truth, the encounter with it, is not pleasure itself? Many years ago a professor of philosophy faced her undergraduate class of almost 100 students and said with an intensity that itself nearly proved her point, that "Philosophy is erotic(!)". Near as I can tell, she was correct. — tim wood
What makes you think truth, the encounter with it, is not pleasure itself? Many years ago a professor of philosophy faced her undergraduate class of almost 100 students and said with an intensity that itself nearly proved her point, that "Philosophy is erotic(!)". Near as I can tell, she was correct. — tim wood
"does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure?" — Nikolas
Philosophy is "the love of wisdom", not wisdom itself; and love, at its most pleasurable, or ecstatic, is often erotic. (vide Plato ... Spinoza ... Nietzsche ... Iris Murdoch ...)... philosophos, one who loves wisdom. Philosophy, then, is the love of wisdom.
Is wisdom more than eroticism? — Nikolas
Our choices are not truth and pleasure. Truth and knowledge are instrumental - we look for them, we're built to look for them, because we need them in order to ask the only real question - What do I do now? I haven't thought much about it, but I guess pleasure is instrumental too. It's the signal our body sends us to let us know we're doing what we're supposed to do. — T Clark
Philosophy is "love of wisdom", not wisdom itself; and love can be, at its most pleasurable, erotic. — 180 Proof
Truth is objective reality which can lead to wisdom while pleasure serves our subjective desires. They do seem to be mutually exclusive.
3m
↪Nikolas And I'm suggesting that these pursuits are not necessarily mutually exclusive and that truth/wisdom-seeking is, for some, the highest, most rarefied, of pleasures. — 180 Proof
↪Nikolas
It could be that rather than intentional sacrifice of pleasure being needed, as the starting point for the quest for truth, that the actual experience of its absence will lead individuals in that direction naturally. In other words, the misery of many individuals in our turbulent times may be enough to trigger the pursuit. Many are facing hardship as the comforts and pursuits of pleasure they have been used to are vanishing around them rapidly. — Jack Cummins
↪Nikolas
Perhaps it is a matter of many people needing a better understanding of pleasure. The people who are caught up in acts such as genocide are not necessarily the ones who are likely to be looking for truth.
However, it is complex because as I understand the picture of Hitler, he was interested in some spiritual teachings related to purity. However, he ended up with a whole emphasis on purging the world of people who he saw as less 'pure'. Even those who quest for 'truth' may make atrocious mistakes. — Jack Cummins
If anything, it could be that awareness of one's own sensory pleasures allows for a more balanced perspective of self awareness. In some ways, we can only follow the path to greater conscious awareness, and that may be a more humble endeavor. Of course, we may wish to grasp 'truth', but that does depend on a whole set of epistemological and metaphysical assumptions, which are very difficult to establish. — Jack Cummins
Sensory pleasures are subjective responses by our unique essence to the shifting world of sensation. It is what drives animal life. However human consciousness when awakened is attracted to the timeless forms and that is where truth bides. — Nikolas
And yet there are so many sense pleasures we need to learn to enjoy. Think about enjoying to drink coffee or smoking: those "pleasures" are learned.Intelligence is refective and intepretive, where sense-pleasures are essentially physical and habitual. — Wayfarer
And yet there are so many sense pleasures we need to learn to enjoy. Think about enjoying to drink coffee or smoking: those "pleasures" are learned. — baker
I think that the quest for knowledge is so different in the time of Plato in this information age. I am not saying that Plato's ideas aren't important but that he was writing in a different time in history. The ancient teachers were aware of wisdom which is valuable but their ideas need to be seen in their historical context rather than in isolation. I don't think that it would be particularly helpful to expect a person to seek objective knowledge through detachment from sensory experiences now. Even Buddhism stressed the middle way. It seems to me that the biggest challenge of our time is not to go beyond the sensory but beyond the robotic level.
The challenge is not necessarily about finding objective truth but about increasing consciousness, and critical awareness, to see through the murkiness of the bombardment of information we have available before us. I suppose the pleasures available on the internet are a possibile source of distraction for some. Many people I know find that they spend so much time watching television. I prefer listening to music, but I think I would probably go crazy if I could not relax by listening to it. — Jack Cummins
I don't think it's truth versus pleasure. I think its power versus truth. I think there is an innate attraction to truth as a consequence of evolution. The organism has to be correct to reality; physiologically, behaviourally, and with us, intellectually - or it dies out.
We built power structures based on supposed truths i.e. God, and then discovered science - and power prevented science being recognised as (the means to establish) truth. We all now live in the shadow of that mistake, and are doomed unless we correct it. — counterpunch
My point is that many pleasures are actually learned, they don't come naturally, contrary to your earlier claim. You, too, probably had to learn to enjoy smoking and drinking. That first puff or sip couldn't have been enjoyable.I managed to give up smoking before it killed me. Still probably drink more than is good for me. Nothing philosophical or wise about it, I’m like any other of the hoi polloi. — Wayfarer
I can't imagine anything more pleasurable than the truth."does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure?"
It would seem to be the goal of a philosopher who prizes truth and knowledge above all things. The philosopher would be one who sacrifices pleasure in pursuit of the experience of truth.
Do such people exist anymore? Why bother with the need for truth when a person has easy access to pleasure.
Kant sked three essential questions: “What can I know?” “What must I do?” and “What may I hope?”
Is the sacrifice of pleasure worth becoming able to try to answer such questions? — Nikolas
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.