I think a lot of Lao Tzu's instructions are "Hey, Valentinus, over here, pay attention to this." — T Clark
I recommend that everyone retire immediately. — T Clark
The map and the territory are always difficult to line up. All these different interpretations of the verse suggests to me that I am not the only one looking at the map with some confusion. — Valentinus
As my Sifu, Ry Cooder, once sang: "Romance without finance is a nuisance, so honey, give me your dough." — Valentinus
I have had the good fortune to take my work seriously without it having it be the only thing that was important for me to take care of. In fact, I only dedicated myself to treating it as a career in my early forties. Some of that was a matter of wanting to work at a certain level and some of that was existential in needing the dough for me and mine. I got to spend several years as the stay at home dad. I spent years remodeling my place. — Valentinus
As a result, I am conditioned (or biased, perhaps) to read the Taoists as calling for disengaging from some values and motivations while also acknowledging the need for work to happen. — Valentinus
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Some other translations are more explicit about this. Chen writes “Honors elevate (shang),
Disgraces depress (hsia).” Addis and Lombardo translate “Favour debases us. Afraid when we get it, Afraid when we lose it.” So, success leads to fear and failure leads to fear. — T Clark
Hope and fear are both phantoms that arise from thinking of the self.
Chen writes “I have great misfortunes, Because I have a body.” That’s a really interesting difference. Some say “self,” some say “body.” When they say “self” they generally seem to be talking about social misfortunes. When they talk about the “body,” they talk about physical or medical misfortunes. That seems like a big difference. With the first, I get the feeling of the self as an unfortunate illusion. With the second I get the feeling of the body as something good that I can’t have if I’m not willing to face the negative consequences.
When we don't see the self as self, what do we have to fear?
Chen writes "If I don't have a body, What misfortunes do I have?" Addis and Lombardo say "No self, No distress." Ivanhoe translates "When I no longer have a body, what calamity could I possibly have? — T Clark
Therefore treasure the body as the world,
As if the body can be entrusted to the world.
Love the body as the world,
As if the body can be entrusted to the world. — T Clark
For me, the inequality between being shamed or being honored is connected to the fear of failing to accomplish a task or duty. Beyond the pain of embarrassment or the pleasure of recognition, what is most scary about the prospect of failure is the withdrawal of trust by others to do something. During 40 years of work in the building trade, the confidence of others grew as my skills became more capable and my familiarity with what was in front of me grew.
But that process only happened because I risked the loss of that confidence by trying something that was not mine yet. When the risk didn't work out, I became relatively isolated by those I gambled with.
In the realm of personal relationships, the loss of trust can end the party entirely. — Valentinus
Mitchell seems attached to certain concepts such as hope, success and fear, and he restructures the text to help consolidate these, missing the variability of a more complex (and less tangible) rendering of these ideas such as how we evaluate our suffering, humility and life. — Possibility
When we translate from Chinese to English, we try to translate all the characters, and then try to work out how the pieces fit together in our existing conceptual structures of experience and language. If it doesn’t seem to fit, there’s a tendency or temptation to distort the quality of these ideas, like forcing pieces of a jigsaw together. But the Chinese language has a very specific structure to it - and the way the ideas relate to each other in this structure is supposed to challenge the way we understand the world. — Possibility
I like the suggestion from other translations that the idea may be more startling than scary - I think it removes the tendency to avoid, and rather suggests that we may simply feel unprepared. — Possibility
Contentment here is not about avoiding the challenges of life, but about not always needing to appear to be a success - about recognising that humility, embarrassment or failure is the first step to learning, and therefore has value in our lives. Whether we succeed or fail, this feeling of fear or unpreparedness doesn’t really go away, it only shifts. — Possibility
The second idea introduced in this verse is that of value or nobility in a life of great suffering, which also seems startling/scary. — Possibility
Overall, I think this verse is about the courage to face what can seem a frightening perspective on life. — Possibility
Shen refers to the main part of a structure, whether that is the body, life, morality and conduct, mind or self. It’s all of it, really - as far as our awareness of it goes. — Possibility
How we might define ‘self’ isn’t relevant here - it’s more about the relation.
The later fleshing out of this second idea I would translate as:
In order to exist, I am one who suffers greatly, and in the capacity of this living existence up until my death, I exist - how is this unfortunate? — Possibility
Therefore treasure the body as the world,
As if the body can be entrusted to the world.
Love the body as the world,
As if the body can be entrusted to the world.
— T Clark
This is not quite how I understand this part. There are two different sets of characters here that he has translated to read ‘as if the body can be entrusted to the world’. — Possibility
We are a temporary gift to the world. We can see that gift as one of expensive value and nobility, as if entrusted to the world. This perspective is dependent on the world to recognise that value and use our life carefully. The alternative is to see that gift as one of love, in which we are entrusted with the world. This perspective empowers us to collaborate with the world in a way that builds a lasting value and significance into our gift, so that it continues to give well beyond our death. — Possibility
Over the past year, I've spent time with a lot of different translations of the TTC. All and all, I think Mitchell's translation holds up well. He does tend to put a more western accent on some things. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
It is what it is - I’m not about to judge anyone’s approach to the TTC as good or bad. But I do think that what he’s missing reduces what those who rely on his translation would be able to get out of the TTC. Having explored other translations, if you return to Mitchell’s as resonating most clearly with your own experience, I see no problems with that.
— T Clark
I've had disagreements with others about such words as "suffering" and "illusion," which are a big part of Buddhist teaching. I've taken the side that there are analogous concepts in Taoism, but the emphasis is different. I don't see suffering as a big theme in the TTC. — T Clark
Are you a Chinese speaker? You certainly seem to know a lot about the language. If you are, I have a few questions. — T Clark
I'm still working on the difference between fear and surprise. As I said, I have a preference for "fear" because it speaks to me directly. What surprise and fear have in common is expectation. I think Lao Tzu may be telling us not to expect anything, good or bad. I think the sense of reaching for honor or cringing from shame, what you call a tendency to avoid, are a big part of the story here. — T Clark
I think Lao Tzu is making a much stronger statement than that. Fear and surprise are a result of expectations. No expectations, no fear, no surprise. It's not about overcoming fear, it's about seeing that there's nothing there.
Hope is the same thing as fear. Success is the same thing as failure. — T Clark
The second idea introduced in this verse is that of value or nobility in a life of great suffering, which also seems startling/scary.
— Possibility
I really don't see this. — T Clark
Overall, I think this verse is about the courage to face what can seem a frightening perspective on life.
— Possibility
I think he's trying to help us get to a place where courage is not needed. I don't think sages are brave. — T Clark
I do like Ivanhoe's take on this verse, although I don't see the significance of apprehension/reverence. — T Clark
Classical Chinese is an isolating language, meaning that each graph stands alone at all times, in isolation, without affixes of any kind, and unmarked for case, number, gender, or tense. The third-person pronoun ta can be he, him, her, she, it; they, them. And so can the graph qi, 其. qu, 去, retains exactly that form for go, going, gone, and went. What follows is that most Chinese characters can serve equally as both nouns and verbs, and modifiers too (adjectives and adverbs); apart from context no graph has a unique grammatical function. Word order is supposedly fixed, being Subject-Verb-Object, but so-called nouns regularly default to verbs (e.g., “running is a strenuous exercise”). Style also made the topic subject of the sentence difficult to ascertain, as when the head noun or object was omitted whenever context made it even slightly clear who or what it was. — SEP article by Henry Rosemount Jr.
At times semantic concerns can reduce the number of interpretive possibilities of a sentence or section, but unfortunately at other times the semantic content of the characters can increase them. This is a major reason why the Daodejing, to take a famous example, is impenetrable to a few, enigmatic to many more, and highly allusive for everyone, and has been the subject of well over 150 translations of it in English alone, as noted earlier. — As above
道 可 道 非 常 道
Dao ke dao fei chang dao.
道
(in first, third, and sixth positions here) means “path”, “way”, “the way”, “to follow”, “to go down a path”. It also means “to speak”, “doctrines”.
可
functions like English modal “can”.
非
a sign of negation; usually in the sense of “not the same as”.
常
“unvarying”, “constant”, “enduring”, “unchanging”.
Literally, then, we have something like “dao can dao not the same as unchanging dao”. — As above
Often when someone references a source, I go look it up on the web. I tried that but didn't find anything, so I wondered if this was someone you could give me a link to. — T Clark
There is only one world. All philosophers are describing the same thing. — T Clark
My body and my self are both things I call "me," but they are really different. It means something different to say "See your body as the world" rather than "See your self as the world." Except, in some way, apparently, it's not different. — T Clark
Not necessarily. I can also have no body when I have seen through the illusion that my body is my self. — T Clark
So where Amity mentions that “without a body I am dead”, I don’t think we can overlook this reality. My existence depends on substance, and as much as I can think of the self as immaterial, it’s actually inseparable from this substance: a living existence that suffers greatly and then dies. This is a startling reality for some of us to face, a frightening one for others. But it’s undeniable, all the same. — Possibility
The guardian and the wiser. Lao-Tzu and Tu-Fu.
Lao-Tzu didn’t want to speak but Tu-Fu was asking many question to him. — javi2541997
“Tie two birds together, and even though they have four wings they cannot fly." – The Blind Man — Amity
I had never heard of Tu-Fu before this. I'm curious.
Would you like to say more about why you posted this ? Where and How do you know about the interaction between Lao-Tzu and Tu-Fu ? In relation to the discussion...? — Amity
Before the book starts, there is a brief story about how supposedly Tao was written. I going to explain it to you: — javi2541997
“Laozi cultivated Dao and virtue,” as Sima Qian goes on to relate, and “his learning was devoted to self-effacement and not having fame. He lived in Zhou for a long time; witnessing the decline of Zhou, he departed.” When he reached the northwest border then separating China from the outside world, he met Yin Xi, the official in charge of the border crossing, who asked him to put his teachings into writing. The result was a book consisting of some five thousand Chinese characters, divided into two parts, which discusses “the meaning of Dao and virtue.” Thereafter, Laozi left; no one knew where he had gone. This completes the main part of Sima Qian’s account. — Laozi (SEP)
But I do think that what he’s missing reduces what those who rely on his translation would be able to get out of the TTC. — T Clark
The structure of traditional Chinese pinyin appears to solve many of the issues I have encountered with articulating my own philosophical approach in English - in particular the Ontic Structural Realism aspect. — Possibility
For me, this difference between fear and surprise relates back to affect, and Barrett’s theory that we predict our relation to the world in terms of valence (positive/negative) and arousal (high/low), and continually adjust our body’s energy distribution (in terms of attention and effort) accordingly. I’m not convinced that we’re able to not expect anything, but I think we can be aware of how affect influences our expectations, and remain sceptical of its positive/negative pull, at least. — Possibility
To say that hope is the same thing as fear seems to me an oversimplification. — Possibility
Have you ever tried to not have any expectations? Your brain is still generating predictions and distributing energies accordingly - you’re simply refusing to participate in the decision-making process. — Possibility
We can let affect (desire) call the shots and entirely ignore both our existing expectations and anything unexpected, or we can relate to the unexpected as neither good nor bad, but simply as unexpected. — Possibility
Shen refers to the main part of a structure, whether that is the body, life, morality and conduct, mind or self. It’s all of it, really - as far as our awareness of it goes.
— Possibility
"Self" and "body" are different, and I think that may be an important difference between the translations. I also think they have something in common - they refer to how we see ourselves, judge ourselves. — T Clark
In order to exist, I am one who suffers greatly, and in the capacity of this living existence up until my death, I exist - how is this unfortunate?
— Possibility
This, and some of your other interpretations, seem to me to be too lofty. To me, this verse, all the verses actually, describe things that are down-home, everyday, run of the mill, no big deal. — T Clark
I think this means something like "If you learn to deal with honors and misfortunes without hope or fear, you will be trustworthy" Chen thinks this verse is aimed at leaders, so it might be "a trustworthy ruler." — T Clark
I've never heard the term "ontic structural realism" before. I looked it up. Are you saying that the fact that Chinese words can act as any part of speech helps you break down artificial boundaries in our concepts? If not... — T Clark
Perhaps a look there will help understanding. — Amity
I have been listening to what @Possibility has been saying about translating from Chinese. I agree it is important to return to the roots. — Amity
Most Chinese characters can serve equally as both nouns and verbs, and modifiers too (adjectives and adverbs); apart from context no graph has a unique grammatical function. — Amity
I guess I’m always open to the possibility, however remote, that none of the current translations are accurate. In hermeneutics, I’ve found that returning to the source language with fresh eyes can be enlightening. — Possibility
In my view, courage is always needed. — Possibility
I'll take a look and see if anything interesting pops out. — T Clark
... second guessing other translators with our limited understanding will just increase the cacophony of meanings. — T Clark
Ivanhoe's influence on themes such as the virtues, ethical cultivation and human nature reflects the influence of Yearley's view that Confucianism may be understood as a form of virtue ethics. Ivanhoe has co-edited a number of anthologies of secondary essays on Chinese thought, and has published a large number of essays and articles in reference works on Confucianism, Mohism and Daoism.
Saige does not wish to be linked to anyone else but me, myself, I. — Amity
Flat out wrong. Even within the West and East what is being described differs. — Amity
Not necessarily. I can also have no body when I have seen through the illusion that my body is my self.
— T Clark
Even if you see through an illusion, you still need the body and mind to enable this. — Amity
Where does the text say this is an illusion? — Amity
The only verse I remember is:
And a horse has no udders,
And a cow can't whinny,
up is down,
And sideways is straight ahead — TheMadFool
Really? Considering that the main topic is the Tao? — Possibility
I’m not sure I would trust a leader who claims to have no hope or fear - someone like Trump comes to mind...but I do get the notion of relating to honour and misfortune as if our own hopes and fears were irrelevant. — Possibility
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