The Tao is the most down-home, everyday, run of the mill, no big deal of all. You'll find that several places where the Tao is referred to as low or behind. This is from Chen's Verse 8:
Water is good in benefiting (li) all beings,
Without contending (cheng) with any.
Situated in places shunned (o) by many others,
Thereby it is near (chi) Tao. — T Clark
Are you saying that you are Saige? If so, the fact that you speak with two different voices is confusing. — T Clark
Flat out wrong = I don't understand what you're saying. — T Clark
Even if you see through an illusion, you still need the body and mind to enable this.
— Amity
Are you saying I need the illusion to see through the illusion? — T Clark
Addis and Lombardo say "The self embodies distress. No self, No distress." Illusion is my word. — T Clark
And a horse has no udders,
And a cow can't whinny,
up is down,
And sideways is straight ahead — TheMadFool
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name. — T Clark
Why would you approach the TTC like this ?I’ve looked through several verses looking for instances of “heaven” and “earth.” — T Clark
Why would it not be significant in its own right ?The second section deals with “Te,” sometimes translated as “virtue.” I don’t know if that is significant or not. — T Clark
[ emphasis added]The way I see it, all humans, perhaps all sentient beings for that matter, come with a constellation of limits to (their) understanding imposed by physical or mental factors (sorry I can't be more specific than that) and we, humans, try our very best to fit reality, the universe, within a construct so constrained. In short, we are the cage and reality is the bird we want encage i.e. grasp on our own terms. — TheMadFool
And others might want to so soak too...so yes, helpful in one way...I don't really have anything to say about these texts. I just wanted to put them down so I can soak in them for a while. — T Clark
What's intriguing about this rather devious technique of resolving Laozi paradoxes is that it forces us to think about semantics/meanings and what is semantics/meanings but reality itself, that which words are aimed at capturing. In a way then, Laozi paradoxes are designed to make us confront, come face to face with, reality directly by arranging rendezvous with semantics/meanings. — TheMadFool
Anyway, the "...one very important aspect of language" I'm talking about is...from where I stand...it's Olympic gymnast level flexibility which I suppose translates to arbitrariness. — TheMadFool
In semiotics, the general theory of signs, sign systems, and sign processes, Saussure introduced the notion of arbitrariness according to which there is no necessary connection between the material sign (or signifier), and the entity it refers to or denotes as its meaning (or signified) as a mental concept or real object.
The principle of semiotic arbitrariness refers to the idea that social convention is what imbues meaning to a given semiosis (any activity, conduct, or process that involves signs, including the production of meaning) or sign.[5]
What about how arbitrary words and the meanings assigned to them are? — TheMadFool
Taoist paradoxes can be resolved by redefining words like I did with the word "up" in the preceding paragraph. — TheMadFool
Beautiful poem from Lao-Tzu to Tu-Fu. The path of virtue
Water and mirror are the key to enter in Taoism thought. — javi2541997
In my view, courage is always needed.
— Possibility
Courage, whether it roars or whispers, is not needed if fear is discarded. — T Clark
Taoist paradoxes can be resolved by redefining words like I did with the word "up" in the preceding paragraph.
— TheMadFool
How do you do this with regard to the TTC ? — Amity
The Tao is not about words, it's about what Kant calls "ding an sich" understood in the broadest sense possible. — TheMadFool
“The Great One Gives Birth to the Water” — T Clark
[Regarding] Heaven and Earth, [their] names and designations stand side by side, therefore [if we] go beyond these areas, [we] cannot think [of something] appropriate [to serve as a name] — T Clark
I think it is more worthy just put the images (if you do not mind) because it is short the dialogue between Lao-Tzu and Tu-Fu... Sorry is in Spanish (casitilian by the way :joke: ) — javi2541997
It remembers me about Democritus when he explained philosophically the course of the water.
Mirror should be the representation of ourselves, then the water of how the life is going through it. Changing when the years are passing. Probably this is why Lao said Tao Te King is a book that is with us during the life journey... — javi2541997
And the verse - you translated that yourself, I guess.
I am impressed by anybody who has English as a second or third language exchanging philosophical views here. Really :100:
Using Oxford dictionary could be: a whole is greater than the sum of its parts — javi2541997
Si :smile: Y que lo digas. Google tells me that is Spanish for 'you can say that again' - an idiomatic phrase. Does it translate well ?Sometimes is difficult because philosophy has a complex vocabulary. — javi2541997
Si :smile: Y que lo digas. Google tells me that is Spanish for 'you can say that again' - an idiomatic phrase. Does it translate well ?
How can you describe the same thing when you are seeing different things ?
If we can't even see and describe a book with all its different translations the same way, how could we describe the whole world the same way ? — Amity
Also, I haven't looked at the Chapters you missed out. I think Ch 5- 10 ?
It makes me wonder why and what we might have missed. It can't be because they are not your favourites. We spent a lot of time on Ch11 which you said you never liked. — Amity
Addis and Lombardo say "The self embodies distress. No self, No distress." Illusion is my word.
— T Clark
Saige again: Yes, your word, and one that would need more textual support if you are to claim it is appropriate. — Amity
Hope that we can now move on from this... — Amity
The last two lines, "up is down" and "sideways is straight ahead" manage to encapsulate the crux or the heart of Taoism as a philosophy dealing exclusively and whole-heartedly in paradoxes. — TheMadFool
Now, what about paradoxes makes them so damn important to Taoism? My hunch is, paradoxes vis-à-vis Taoism, are purposed for one specific task - to do an exposè on language itself but the question is what exactly about language is being revealed through paradoxes? — TheMadFool
In a way then, Laozi paradoxes are designed to make us confront, come face to face with, reality directly by arranging rendezvous with semantics/meanings, get past the confusion of words, language. — TheMadFool
Why would you approach the TTC like this ?
It's a bit like searching a Bible Concordance for 'Heaven'.
The second section deals with “Te,” sometimes translated as “virtue.” I don’t know if that is significant or not.
— T Clark
Why would it not be significant in its own right ?
Are you trying to make connections before we even get there ?
I don't find this helpful. It is another case of chopping up the text and the discussion... — Amity
It sounds like you are searching for bits of the TTC (birds) to tie in to your own constraints (cage).
Confusion seems to arise when it doesn't all fit together to suit your way of looking.
So, any disagreement with what is found in the texts you view as a problem with the text and not with your lack of understanding. At least that is how it seems to me. But I am just as likely to be wrong. — Amity
The way we are discussing the TTC is quite disjointed... — Amity
The Tao is not about words, it's about what Kant calls "ding an sich" understood in the broadest sense possible. The "ding an sich" is precisely what words through "meaning" is supposed to capture. — TheMadFool
The artificial gap created by language between mind and reality is closed in that moment when you encounter a paradox. This view is counterintuitive and may even bear the hallmark of lunacy but...it can't be denied that when one is presented with paradoxes, one must eventually dive, headlong I suppose, into "meaning" for it's at that level where paradoxes exist. — TheMadFool
How do we ‘discard’ fear? — Possibility
When we supposedly ‘discard’ fear we just ignore its capacity to affect us. This can be useful as a selective strategy in the short term, but this kind of ignorance can be harmful as an overall perspective. — Possibility
The repeated acts of giving birth and the new being "returning to assist" is like knitting or weaving a fabric that permits the multiplicity of the myriad things. — Valentinus
[Regarding] Heaven and Earth, [their] names and designations stand side by side, therefore [if we] go beyond these areas, [we] cannot think [of something] appropriate [to serve as a name]
— T Clark
This suggests that the "boundary" of names can only be conceived by presuming a dimension beyond the boundary. Staying near the boundary seems to be the emphasis of Verse 5. — Valentinus
There's a lot going on with "The Great One." I've only given you a part of it. I don't have a good grasp of how it's supposed to fit in with the TTC. — T Clark
On the other hand, if they were created by me and received life at my hands, they would be on an equality with the gods. In order then that they may be mortal, and that this universe be truly universal, do ye, according to your natures, betake yourselves to the formation of animals, imitating the power which was shown by me in creating you.
The part of them worthy of the name immortal, which is called divine and is the guiding principle of those who are willing to follow justice and you--of that divine part I will myself now sow the seed, and having made a beginning, I will hand the work over to you. And do ye then interweave the mortal with the immortal and make and begat living creatures, and give them food and make them to grow, and receive them again in death. — Plato, Timaeus,41b, translated by Benjamin Jowett
it's like someone holding you by the back of your neck and pressing your face against something. The artificial gap created by language between mind and reality is closed in that moment when you encounter a paradox. — TheMadFool
I'm reading Barrett's book and I like it a lot. Thanks for the reference. By "expect" in this context, are you talking about the mind's automatic filling in the blanks in incomplete perceptions that Barrett talks about? If so, I think that's a completely different phenomenon than we're talking about here. I think any intimation of "expectation" is a more common everyday use of the word, i.e. we are anticipating what will come next. We are living in the future rather than the present. — T Clark
I think we come back to a big difference between your way of seeing the TTC and mine. I think it's about the experience of the Tao. Hope and fear feel the same. We process them the same. — T Clark
I think you are using "expectation" in the sense that Barrett means it and not how Lao Tzu would and I do. So, yes I have tried and succeeded to not have expectations in the everyday sense of the word. It's hard to do unless I'm really paying attention. — T Clark
Different translations seem to differ on whether fear or surprise is a bad thing or just a thing. — T Clark
I went back and looked at several different translations of Verse 13. I looked at this one by Thomas Cleary, which i hadn't looked at before. It really lays things out the way I've been thinking about it. He uses both "alarmed" and "startled."
Favor and disgrace seem alarming; high status greatly afflicts your person.
What are favor and disgrace? Favor is the lower: get it and you're surprised, lose it and you're startled. This means favor and disgrace are alarming. — T Clark
I struggle to relate to Cleary’s translation - I don’t think that ‘surprise’ or ‘alarm’ describe qualitatively how it feels to gain favour or to lose it AT ALL. The sentences are logically structured, and the character translations are all quantitatively accounted for - but it’s lacking accuracy in qualitative structure as it relates to experience. That this qualitative aspect seems such an insignificant thing to us is what concerns me. — Possibility
All creation stories seem to involve recognition of the "boundary" between the "named and unnamed." How they serve as a mirror can be very different. — Valentinus
I think there is common ground in framing the conditions on our side of the "heavenly gate" as interweaving the mortal with the immortal. I think the difference is that Lao Tzu is learning the lesson through navigating the world as it finds him rather than Plato framing it as a class taught by his ancestors. — Valentinus
The entire physical structure of intentional action and consciousness necessitates anticipating what will come next - ‘living in the future rather than the present’. — Possibility
So, while it makes sense to say that there is the same quality of expectation in experiences of both hope and fear, those experiences differ markedly in affect (one being pleasant and the other unpleasant), and so we process them differently, and they feel different. Once we acknowledge this, then we can begin to understand the quality of expectation beyond our affected distinction of hope and fear, and also understand affect in relation to our expectations. — Possibility
What we’re calling ‘expectation’ here, Barrett refers to as prediction. — Possibility
When you do appear to succeed at not having expectations, are you aware of what it is you are paying attention to? And what you are ‘discarding’? — Possibility
I struggle to relate to Cleary’s translation — Possibility
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