favor and disgrace are existential. — Valentinus
We don't discard fear, we see through it. See through the illusion. — T Clark
...your brain works like a scientist. It’s always making a slew of predictions, just as a scientist makes competing hypotheses. Like a scientist, your brain uses knowledge (past experience) to estimate how confident you can be that each prediction is true. Your brain then tests its predictions by comparing them to incoming sensory input from the world, much as a scientist compares hypotheses against data in an experiment. If your brain is predicting well, then input from the world confirms your predictions. Usually, however, there is some prediction error, and your brain, like a scientist, has some options. It can be a responsible scientist and change its predictions to respond to the data. Your brain can also be a biased scientist and selectively choose data that fits the hypotheses, ignoring everything else. Your brain can also be an unscrupulous scientist and ignore the data altogether, maintaining that its predictions are reality. Or, in moments of learning or discovery, your brain can be a curious scientist and focus on input. And like the quintessential scientist, your brain can run armchair experiments to imagine the world: pure simulation without sensory input or prediction error.
The balance between prediction and prediction error determines how much of your experience is rooted in the outside world versus inside your head....in many cases, the outside world is irrelevant to your experience. In a sense, your brain is wired for delusion: through continual prediction, you experience a world of your own creation that is held in check by the sensory world. Once your predictions are correct enough, they not only create your perception and action but also explain the meaning of your sensations. This is your brain’s default mode. And marvellously, your brain does not just predict the future: it can imagine the future at will. As far as we know, no other animal can do that. — Barrett, ‘How Emotions Are Made’
I don't want to give the impression that it's something I can do on an extended basis. Do you meditate at all? I don't in any formal way, but if I pay attention, I can go to state of mind where I am aware of what is going on inside me with no words. When that happens, fear, expectation, dissolve. I haven't forgotten them and I'm not hiding them, they're just not there. This is a pretty common description of a meditative, now they're calling it "mindful," state. — T Clark
Ok - seeing through it makes sense. I just get a sense that we’re intellectually accepting these translations because they have a satisfying quantitative or logical structure to them, regardless of whether or not they’re qualitatively accurate. I think we need to be more thorough than that. — Possibility
They are concepts in our social reality, a product of human agreement — Possibility
Fear is identified by neural firing patterns as a mental event, in a categorisation method (proposed by Darwin) known as population thinking. Fear as an event has been demonstrated as irreducible to a particular location or set of neurons in the brain, leading to an understanding of degeneracy: a many-to-one relational structure between neurons and the firing patterns that identify as mental events. — Possibility
The process of understanding the Tao includes constructing a reductionist methodology that renders this understanding in how we think, speak, act and generally relate to the world - all of which is necessarily bound by affect. — Possibility
This is a common intellectual, even Western, description of ‘mindfulness’. It’s a restructuring of our conceptual reality that consolidates the mind as isolated from the body. — Possibility
In this state, for me it isn’t so much that fear isn’t there, or that expectation dissolves, but that it just isn’t what we think it is. What ‘fear’ consists of still exists as variable qualitative experience - it’s just not a thing in itself. — Possibility
Fear, at least as I'm talking about it, and as I think Lao Tzu thought about it, is a mental experience. It's part of the mind. Let's not get into a discussion of mind/brain identity. For me, the mind and the brain are completely different things. The nervous system, the whole body, is a living organ made up of cells. Fear is an experience. — T Clark
Fear is not an illusion, anymore than money or countries are illusions. — Possibility
You haven't exactly answered my question.
Your original verse is from the film 'Circle of Iron', not as you know from the TTC.
I don't see how either the TTC or Zen koans are resolved by using language arbitrarily.
You say you resolved the paradox in the verse by arbitrarily naming 'up' 'down'. You use words.
Then you say that the TTC is not about words. Sure but we need to use words to try and understand the meaning of the TTC as written.
To help me understand, perhaps you could provide an example of the TTC where a paradox is resolved by redefining the language arbitrarily. — Amity
The most straight seems curved. — Tao Te Ching
The easy seems hard — Tao Te Ching
the path forward seems like retreat — Tao Te Ching
Those who speak don't know and those who know don't speak — Tao Te Ching
Those who speak don't know and those who know don't speak — Laozi
The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao — Tao Te Ching
It seems from what you’re saying here that you subscribe to some form of dualism or idealism, — Possibility
You seem reluctant to explore this, preferring to see fear as all in the mind. — Possibility
But I also think Lao Tzu describes our relational structure as dissolving any quantitative distinction between mind and brain. More often than not we’re not paying that much attention introspectively. We should acknowledge, with humility, those times when, in failing to predict accurately, we find ourselves surprisingly affected by our expectations. Despite physiological preparation to fight or flee, we need not act on this, but often we’re left to explain an unconscious response after the fact. How readily do we acknowledge fear as an explanation then - especially if we believe that fear is just a mental experience? — Possibility
I see hope not as an illusion. It underlies the present and is an important motivator.
If you are writing words in a post, this involves hope.
You have a hope that your words might mean something to somebody.
The author of the TTC had a goal.
He hoped that he could achieve this by using words.
Words that could express his thoughts in poetic form.
He hoped that his words might mean something to somebody.
In the act of writing, he was thinking about the future.
He was also paying attention.
Hope is an important part of living. It is a driving force. — Amity
That "those who speak don't know and those who know don't speak" is an explicit statement on the nature of the Tao as something beyond language and in order to give eager enthusiasts of Taoism a feel for that Laozi resorts to paradoxes because, — TheMadFool
1. To understand paradoxes, we have get down to the level of semantics - what the words mean - and semantics is, if you really look at it, reality itself, the many ways it presents itself to us. Words are there only as labels for aspects of reality, be it an object, state, or phenomenon. Thus, paradoxes serve the important function of forcing us to think about reality itself. — TheMadFool
However, if I were to say "straight"' means curved, then the contradiction's resolved. — TheMadFool
I'm ok with this, as long as, when you say "reality" you mean "the 10,000 things" and not "the Tao." — T Clark
I think it's more than that. It looks like your quote comes from Verse 45, so we'll get back to it. We could skip directly to that verse, but some don't like my habit of jumping around. — T Clark
If you have doubts as to whether this is the correct way to understand Taoism, I have no real reason to counter that. — TheMadFool
That out of the way, what do you think "the 10,000 things" means? For my money, the exact figure of 10,000 is not as important as what it suggests viz. multiplicity, plurarlity, or what Laozi is really worried about viz. division that then becomes the cause of strife, chaos, and, of course the main antagonist, suffering. — TheMadFool
Laozi wants us to see past differences, the very foundation of all division, "the 10,000 things", and try and grasp what I can only refer to as the unity which is the Tao. — TheMadFool
We need to pay close attention to "...to defy all reason..." the words that appear at the end of the last sentence in the paragraph above because Laozi isn't proposing that we should now give up on logic and reason, embrace irrationality. — TheMadFool
The eternal dance of opposites, the masculine dominating, the feminine yielding, and our job, according to Laozi, is not, as I thought earlier, to be some kind of harmonizing force, heroically bringing balance to the world but simply to yield willingly and to the best of our ability to the yin and the yang as both converge on us as both do on each and every one of us. — TheMadFool
As you might intimate from what I wrote above, I don't agree with this. I don't think there is a reductionist methodology within 10 miles of the TTC. — T Clark
You seem reluctant to explore this, preferring to see fear as all in the mind.
— Possibility
It's not fair (stomps feet). I tell you I don't see things the way you do and you say I'm "reluctant to explore." — T Clark
What is looked at but not (pu) seen,
Is named the extremely dim (yi).
What is listened to but not heard,
Is named the extremely faint (hsi).
What is grabbed but not caught,
Is named the extremely small (wei).
These three cannot be comprehended,
Thus they blend into one.
As to the one, its coming up is not light,
Its going down is not darkness.
Unceasing, unnameable,
Again it reverts to nothing.
Therefore it is called the formless form,
The image (hsiang) of nothing.
Therefore it is said to be illusive and evasive (hu-huang).
Come toward it one does not see its head,
Follow behind it one does not see its rear.
Holding on to the Tao of old (ku chih tao),
So as to steer in the world of now (chin chih yu).
To be able to know the beginning of old,
It is to know the thread of Tao. — T Clark
Well, I must've read a cheap knockoff version of the Tao Te Ching then. Sorry. But for what it's worth a few verses that prove my point that the Tao Te Ching is about paradoxes: — TheMadFool
paradoxes serve the important function of forcing us to think about reality itself. — TheMadFool
[ my emphases]Definition of Paradox
A paradox is a statement that appears at first to be contradictory, but upon reflection then makes sense. This literary device is commonly used to engage a reader to discover an underlying logic in a seemingly self-contradictory statement or phrase. As a result, paradox allows readers to understand concepts in a different and even non-traditional way...
As a literary device, paradox functions as a means of setting up a situation, idea, or concept that appears on the surface to be contradictory or impossible. However, with further thought, understanding, or reflection, the conflict is resolved due to the discovery of an underlying level of reason or logic. This is effective in that a paradox creates interest and a need for resolution on the part of the reader for understanding. This allows the reader to invest in a literary work as a means of deciphering the meaning of the paradox.
A method to resolve paradoxes is to play with words — TheMadFool
[my emphasis]I tinkered around with the semantics which I already informed you is reality as it is. This technique of resolving contradictions is a cheap trick, yes, but only if resolving paradoxical contradictions were the aim; the paradoxes in the Tao Te Ching are not meant to be resolved at all. Au contraire, they're meant to put pressure on the mind to look past the words and go into semantics which, as I explained earlier, is reality itself, beyond words. — TheMadFool
This verse is a watershed of different views. Are the things being named as awkwardly related to each other as the problem of talking about them? Or is there an order that is consistent to itself as how things come about that we only understand poorly through deficient means?
The answer or problems toward answering that question tempers the element of Mysticism that has been represented in so many different ways, here, and in the academic commentary.
Put another way, the strong language about how one set of conditions leads to another points to one kind of observation. The ground where we make comparisons points to something else. — Valentinus
I think it's more than that. It looks like your quote comes from Verse 45, so we'll get back to it. We could skip directly to that verse, but some don't like my habit of jumping around.
— T Clark
:up: — TheMadFool
The way we are discussing the TTC is quite disjointed...
Having said that, it has proven to be fascinating and illuminating.
Perhaps a meandering path is just right for us... — Amity
I've been happy with how well we have stayed on the path I envisioned when I started this thread. It doesn't feel disjointed to me at all. — T Clark
In my next post, I will start with the first verse. After that, if people want to bring in their own favorites, that will be ok. I would like to work our way through it more or less in order. I will skip many verses just because I feel like it.
Keep in mind - I'm not going to be talking about what the TTC means. I will be talking about what it means to me. — T Clark
In order to do that Laozi resorts to paradoxes, contradictions, because these are the extremes of division; we could make the case that grey is black or that grey is white but to say black is white, as the Tao Te Ching's many paradoxes eventually reduce to, is to defy all reason. — TheMadFool
Good and bad, black and white, beautiful and ugly - these are not naming things or concepts but boundaries to value structures that differentiate our relation to the Tao.
I’m saying that black and white, for instance, we have arbitrarily named as upper and lower limitations to the variable quality of greyness. Good and bad, beautiful and ugly, etc are also nothing but constructs of our own limited relations. I’m saying that the variability of greyness can be differentiated and named as particular ‘shades’ only in relation to black and white. The variability of our experience can be differentiated and named as particular things only in relation to these upper and lower limitations of value structure. This is how we make initial sense of our relation to the world. — Possibility
that's just me and nothing to do with what Laozi really wanted to share regarding reality and our place in it. — TheMadFool
I suppose my approach to the Tao Te Ching is heavily influenced by my fascination with detective fictions like Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot - I look at everything, at least try to, as a mystery that needs a solving. — TheMadFool
:sad:This is where I sign off...
Good luck! — TheMadFool
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts — Amity
Further careful thought and reflection required. — Amity
Did you really think that I required proof of the existence of paradoxes in the TTC ? — Amity
Thanks for a valuable contribution. — Amity
Further careful thought and reflection required.
— Amity
How might I do that? Any ideas? — TheMadFool
Yes - I think this verse is the beginning of a new tack. First of all, these are aspects of reality that elude us in some way. Perhaps we can look at them this way: — Possibility
What he did see was that, unable to examine these aspects closely as such, we tend to confuse them all as one. This doesn’t help...
Lao Tzu’s solution seems to be to examine our history of relation to the Tao, and the very next verse begins with a description of the old masters. — Possibility
Looked for but not seen, its name is ''minute''.
Listened for but not heard, its name is ''rarified''.
Grabbed for but not gotten, its name is ''subtle''.
These three cannot be perfectly explained, and so are confused and regarded as one...
...Trailing off without end, it cannot be named.
It returns to its home, back before there were things. ( note 32)
...Hold fast to the Way of old, in order to control what is here today.
The ability to know the ancient beginnings, this is called the thread of the Way. — Ivanhoe
I don't think you need help with that one.
I see you'll soon be celebrating TPF membership of 5yrs.
Congrats — Amity
:rofl:Three-quarters of that time was spent in an oppressive haze of confusion. — TheMadFool
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