But isn't philosophy about discussing what those good and bad things are?

I'm not that pessimistic. Neither about fast food nor pornography. I never bought food from the school cantina (talking early 00's here). Mom made sandwiches and at some point I realised I could make better ones myself! I've briefly worked in a kitchen and proper cooking just isn't that easy. Yes, we should teach ourselves more life skills instead of just science. I like the approach of treating everyone and everything with respect and dignity. Including food and sex.

Because things that feel good short-term can cause damage long-term. — TaySan

Truth be told, sex can be viewed as a very strategic move by nature to keep the game alive so to speak. Nature must keep the torch of life burning against nigh impossible odds.

This reminds me of a Richard Feynman video on how AI tackles problems. The story goes that there's a naval battle video game and the choices offered to players are an assortment of ships, small, medium, big, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. Human players tended to build navies that had a mix of ship types and whoever had the best combinations of warships won the PVP battles.

An AI was given the opportunity to play with the specific command to win as many games as possible. What did the AI do? It simply created a navy with thousands upon thousands of tiny gunboats and, as directed, it won all the games against even the best human players.

Nature, much like the AI in the story above, has come up with a similar approach. Obstacles to life are innumerable and also unpredictable. How does nature ensure a win in a battle between life and everything that wants to end it? Sheer numbers and that can only be had through sex, sex, and more sex.

Basically, sex is a very simple but highly effective long-term strategem to ensure life can overcome obstacles in its path with overwhelming numbers.

Am I off-topic?

No, you're not. But I don't always know how to make evolution and morality rhyme. Need to think this through.

also the work of Melinda Tankard Reist.// — Wayfarer

This article is very good and I recommend anyone to read it. Thanks for sharing it

One of the paradoxes of modern liberalism is that it has become increasingly liberal in moral affairs and increasingly controlled in economic affairs. While it gets easier for a horny lad to engage in behavior that satisfies an every-expanding array of kinks, a growing body of external regulations prohibit his deviation from orthodox productivity.

I, for one, welcome the end of moral coercion (as Mill called it), but without a corresponding decline in economic coercion, I think the only direction we can go is towards a libertine rather than libertarian society.

If it's good, why is there [not] an outcry against it? If it's bad how did it become a multi-billion dollar franchise? — TheMadFool

This is a global dis-grace. If you want any further proof that the world is being run by adult-children, here it is. Allowing porn access to all ages is a horrendous idea that nobody seems to care about in the least.

What do you think. Is porn bad for us? — TaySan

History, when applied in the human cultural context, proves that, in moments of great decadence and stagnation, both moral and cultural, the sexual objectification of humanity becomes prevalent in the most diverse forms of society, such as linguistics, perspective, iconographic and even economical - in its most profound moments -.

Pornography itself is not "bad" for humanity, humanity is bad for itself, as it descends from an earlier context of humanity that developed the space for such a vision and action to become the norm of such civilization.

Therefore, "pornography is a consequence of the inversion of values ​​caused by the set of factors that enable such "relaxation" to be achieved".

In short, such normalization can be found in periods that contain the following characteristics:

- Economic prosperity;
- Political stability - aka, political peace -;
- Secularization;
- Multiculturalism - or, currently known as "globalism" -;
- Freedom of individual expression;
- Intellectual prosperity.

I will get back to many of the things you all have written and my sincerest thanks for it. I just want to leave you today with this thought:

What feels good to you might not feel good to someone else

What feels good to you might not feel good to someone else — TaySan

Indeed, another proof of the subjective experience of existence.

Statistics say that 25 percent of all internet searches are related to porn. — TaySan

Hidden in plain sight!

The internet has facilitated the distribution of porn, in the same way it has facilitated the distribution of all sorts of information. Prior to the arrival of the web, browsers, search engines, and plentiful bandwidth, pornography was physically situated in magazines and videos (and before video, film). One had to go somewhere to purchase porn. In the same way, before the internet and WWW, one had to go to the library or book store to acquire information.

Technological innovation often leads to expansion. Access to information was hugely expanded once Gutenberg's press (mid-1400s) started turning out books. Better presses, more information.

There is also an 'institutional factor': State and federal court rulings do not give blanket endorsements to pornography--they don't say, "anything goes". Instead, there is a set of conditions and terminology which generally allows, if not everything, quite a lot. Charges of obscenity are still brought--take the Cincinnati case:

In 1990, the director of a Cincinnati art museum was indicted on obscenity charges for mounting an exhibit of Mapplethorpe’s photographs that only a few weeks before had been hanging at a nearby university without incident. The photos included men displaying their genitals and engaged in sex acts.

The art director was acquitted of the charges. Some of Mapplethorpe's photos could be considered mildly pornographic--most would not. They certainly turned the crank of the local district attorney!

Philosophers of a nervous or gay disposition, look away now.

https://www.healthcareglobal.com/technology-and-ai-3/porn-fuels-increasing-demand-designer-vaginas

https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/life/health-fitness/pornography-linked-to-rise-in-surgery-for-women-163614

Cosmetic surgery can be empowering for individual women while reinforcing the hegemonic ideals that oppress women as a group.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3081936?seq=1

I noticed a while back that the needs of the camera for a clear view had bled into the general aesthetic for shaving pubic hair, - an unhygienic and infantilising fashion, but A little chat with google indicates that things have moved on, alas.

What feels good to you might not feel good to someone else — TaySan

This sentiment is precisely what I wanted to express earlier. The issue of pornography - how the demand for it sustains a large-scale industry and how, simultaneously, there are many are against it - brings to the fore a very intriguing facet to hedonism-based morality which is, if you haven't guessed already, that not all pleasurable things are good. The puzzle of pornography - how well it runs and how bad we feel because of that - is just one of the many ways in which the marriage between hedonism and morality falls apart.

This sentiment is precisely what I wanted to express earlier. The issue of pornography - how the demand for it sustains a large-scale industry and how, simultaneously, there are many are against it - brings to the fore a very intriguing facet to hedonism-based morality which is, if you haven't guessed already, that not all pleasurable things are good. The puzzle of pornography - how well it runs and how bad we feel because of that - is just one of the many ways in which the marriage between hedonism and morality falls apart.

Conversely, if masochists have anything to say about it, not all painful things are bad.

Conversely, if masochists have anything to say about it, not all painful things are bad. — NOS4A2

Not really, I have this sneaking suspicion that masochism is a myth.

I have this sneaking suspicion that masochism is a myth. — TheMadFool

I have seen people play rugby of their own free will.

I have seen people play rugby of their own free will — unenlightened

I've seen rugby players wearing helmets :lol:

The puzzle of pornography - how well it runs and how bad we feel because of that - is just one of the many ways in which the marriage between hedonism and morality falls apart. — TheMadFool

There was a social phenomena during the mid 20th century, called ‘the sexual revolution’. As I’m born in the fifties, I’m aware of it, but many born in the 70’s and afterwards aren’t aware of it, because it’s become the new normal. But at the time, the sexual revolution was seen as a complete upheaval and overthrowing of prior mores regarding sexuality, marriage, procreation, family, and so on. One of the major factors was the introduction of contraceptives, of course, which severed the link between sexual intercourse and procreation. Another was sexual liberation, which basically declared that sexual pleasure and sexual identity were fundamental human rights, on par with ethnicity or religion.

Among the antecedents, I think Freud’s theories were a major factor. He introduced the notion that libido is the basic drive of all life, and that to repress it or deny it was the cause of neuroses and other ills. I think everyone now believes that. Even though much of Freud has now been forgotten, that element became well and truly embedded in the collective culture. Other elements were the Alfred Kinsey and Masters & Johnson studies of ‘sexology’. Conservatives say that Kinsey was an advocate of deviant sexuality saying that, for instance, he documented what it took to induce orgasms in children and observing the sexual activities of co-workers and peers.

Nowadays, most of the media regard the new normal as, well, normal. The only people who really talk about the sexual revolution in other-than-approving terms tend to be religious or social conservatives who are easily depicted as oppressors and enemies of freedom.

Remember how Alduous Huxley depicted sexuality in Brave New World. Women were ‘pneumatic’ and sex a form of recreational activity with no implied moral bond or parental obligation. Well, we’re living the brave, new dream. Internet porn is an aspect of it, and an incubator for it.

I think that's largely true, W. But intense sexuality is not just for the profane - theists and contemplatives like to give it a go too.

Never underestimate the super-charged sexuality of many evangelical Christians. They may profess faith in marriage, but they are a highly sexed, glamour obsessed genus often making extraordinary carnal demands on their women in terms that would embarrass Huxley's cute dystopia. An interesting look at this culture from last year is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation - Kristin Kobes Du Mez

Buddhist and Yoga groups I was involved with back in the 1980's were full of highly sexed folk romping about with each other despite an ostensible focus on celibacy and contemplation. I found it hard to forget the 1991 book Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti which uncovers the story of Krishnamurti's long-term extra marital affair with Rosalind Edith Rajagopal, along with the abortions he is said to have asked her to have. Well, I guess Mr K was friendly with Mr Huxley....

My suspicion is that spirituality or religion is so often just one of two sets of books people keep for themselves. Human behaviour has its irresistible attractions regardless of transcendent ostentations. You'll find that porn appeals as much to Catholic priest (no surprises there) as it does to the secretary of the Buddhist Youth Club. They just won't talk about it publicly.

I have a first edition of the Rosalind Rajagopal Sloss book. I was very dissappointed by it (although bear in mind that Krishnamurti never preached celibacy. I was also massively dissappointed when the scandal broke around Chogyam Trungpa.)

I know there's a lot of sexual misbehaviour that's associated with repression, you only have to look at the terrible scandals in religious institutions. No contest there.

The way that I see it, the sexual drive is so obviously a manifestation of will, in Schopenhauer's sense - it is an expression of all life's longing. But I still believe that there are those who escape the pull (sorry for the double entrendre.) They reach 'escape velocity'. ;-)

I still think the only feasible philosophical view is to put sex under the command of real love, which is pretty well what Christianity says. Apparently a very difficult thing to achieve, but I can't think of a better alternative.

This weird culture has caused women to believe I was not romantically interested because of their looks or even race. My friends suggested I should say they look beautiful but their personalities are unattractive. As if that isn't damaging to someone's self-esteem. My Dad told me that humanity has moved from ethics to aesthetics and I can clearly see the dark side of it. And from experience I can tell the homosexual side of the story is not much better. The public #MeToo cases in Dutch media were primarily from men harassing other men. Welcome to the Netherlands.

There was a social phenomena during the mid 20th century, called ‘the sexual revolution’. As I’m born in the fifties, I’m aware of it, but many born in the 70’s and afterwards aren’t aware of it, because it’s become the new normal. But at the time, the sexual revolution was seen as a complete upheaval and overthrowing of prior mores regarding sexuality, marriage, procreation, family, and so on. One of the major factors was the introduction of contraceptives, of course, which severed the link between sexual intercourse and procreation. Another was sexual liberation, which basically declared that sexual pleasure and sexual identity were fundamental human rights, on par with ethnicity or religion.

Among the antecedents, I think Freud’s theories were a major factor. He introduced the notion that libido is the basic drive of all life, and that to repress it or deny it was the cause of neuroses and other ills. I think everyone now believes that. Even though much of Freud has now been forgotten, that element became well and truly embedded in the collective culture. Other elements were the Alfred Kinsey and Masters & Johnson studies of ‘sexology’. Conservatives say that Kinsey was an advocate of deviant sexuality saying that, for instance, he documented what it took to induce orgasms in children and observing the sexual activities of co-workers and peers.

Nowadays, most of the media regard the new normal as, well, normal. The only people who really talk about the sexual revolution in other-than-approving terms tend to be religious or social conservatives who are easily depicted as oppressors and enemies of freedom.

Remember how Alduous Huxley depicted sexuality in Brave New World. Women were ‘pneumatic’ and sex a form of recreational activity with no implied moral bond or parental obligation. Well, we’re living the brave, new dream. Internet porn is an aspect of it, and an incubator for it. — Wayfarer

Interesting.

I've skimmed through the Wikipedia entries on Sigmund Freud, Alfred Kinsey, and sexology. Informative but only to extent that it held my attention which, oddly, wasn't for too long. I suppose when you make sex into a science as sexology attempts to it puts some distance between our sex drive and sex itself, making sexology not in the least bit arousing for the nether regions; nevertheless sexology is a subject in its own right - complete with doctoral degrees and serious research - and should, hopefully, provide us not only tips and tricks on how to get the best out of coitus but also vital information on sex within a much broader context such as society, disease (STD, infertility, impotence, rape, etc.), economy, family, age groups, and in religion. I'm sure sexologist researchers have done all of that but I'm going out on a limb here and say they forgot to investigate the religion angle. This is surprising since religions, at least the ones I have some idea of, make what goes on in our bedrooms their sacred business.

How does pronography fit into all of that? Well, for my money, I'd say that all that's happened is the previous opaque walls that enclosed our sexual appetites have now been replaced with transparent, see-through glass. In other words, there's nothing that wasn't already there before; it's just that with the sexual revolution, it can all be seen now. This applies to pornography too; pornography is, all said and done, fantasizing and there's no doubt at all that people could fantasize, have pornographic thoughts, well before the advent of film. This throws a spanner in the works of researchers who want to study the effect of pornography because sexual fantasizing (cheap pornography) was already on the scene much before what now passes as porn. There's no way there can be any difference that can be described in terms of before porn and after porn because the distinction doesn't exist.

How does pronography fit into all of that? Well, for my money, I'd say that all that's happened is the previous opaque walls that enclosed our sexual appetites have now been replaced with transparent, see-through glass. — TheMadFool

And a camera!

sexual fantasizing (cheap pornography) was already on the scene much before what now passes as porn. — TheMadFool

What wasn’t, was a means of transmitting it seamlessly to billions of screens simultaneously.

but do you think the good outweighs the bad? Because I honestly don't know — TaySan

Generalization of it being good or bad isn't the best way to think of this. Far better is to make more specific questions about it. There are negative aspects to it and porn is a sad industry, yet how the society deals with pornography differs. Banning it isn't a good idea, just as the idea of prohibition of the use alcohol or drugs is bad, even if their use has far more obvious negative impacts and there is far more justification for the prohibition of the recreational use of them.

Is it good or bad depends quite a lot on the society and how the society deals with sexuality in general. I've noticed that the most conservative and non-permissive societies where porn is totally banned can have also the most serious sexual harassment and there women and girls are treated as sexual objects even more. It's not a simple question, just like violence in movies, games etc. don't simply make us or our society more violent: kids that have just played first person shooter games for all of their childhood and not exercised outside make lousy soldiers.

:ok:

Very good answer. Personally I believe in ahimsa, non-violence so a lousy soldier is still better than a top-rate murderer in my opinion. But it seems the world isn't that far yet. And I doubt it will in my lifetime. Anyway, thanks!

Great analysis.

I don't understand. There's not always a link between marketing and pornography.

I can only find part 2 of 'A rough Trade' by Martin Amis. It's fascinating though. Really well-written. Makes you wonder

I certainly prefer his non-fiction to his novels.