I don't know how to get a third party verification, the first two parties being me silently humming and me listening to it. — frank

You are authorised to verify the match between the two internal images, one perceptual and one not, by your proven competence in verifying the match between two perceptual images, such that your judgement agreed with others'. I.e. by singing together. (Not using an app! :vomit: )

It's not a private language of private sensations, it's a public language of private sensations and/or their corresponding public stimuli.

Yes. I understand what numerical identity is. — frank

My bad.

I don't understand the nature of qualia in general. What's happening? How does it work? — frank

Yeah, me too. Or, at any rate, how does the myth work. :lol:

You are authorised to verify the match between the two internal images, one perceptual and one not, by your proven competence in verifying the match between two perceptual images, such that your judgement agreed with others'. I.e. by singing together. ( — bongo fury

I don't generate any internal humming when I sing with others, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, me too. Or, at any rate, how does the myth work. :lol: — bongo fury

:up:

I don't generate any internal humming when I sing with others, so I have no idea what you're talking about. — frank

Fine...

You are authorised to verify the match between your internal image of you humming and a similar real sound event, by your proven competence in verifying the match between two sound events, such that your judgement agreed with others'. I.e. by singing together.

I seem to have this uncanny ability to sing in my head too. — Olivier5

If you had the ability to get a song out of your head I might be inclined to call that uncanny.

You are authorised to verify the match between your internal image of you humming and a similar real sound event, by your proven competence in verifying the match between two sound events, such that your judgement agreed with others'. I.e. by singing together. — bongo fury

I'm kind of befuddled that you don't see the problem with this. Oh well. Cool discussion, thanks!

There's one big difference though. I can check the frequency I'm humming. Only I know the sound of internal humming.
— frank
What does it mean to know the sound of internal humming when you can't check its frequency? If you need to know the frequency to know the sound and you can't check the frequency of the sound in your mind then how can you say that you know the sound in your mind? — Harry Hindu

You're not good to address this?

You can't tell the frequency of the sound in your mind because frequencies have to do with wavelenghts. If the sound in your head doesn't have a frequency, it doesn't have a wavelength, so it comes down to how to distinguish between external wavelengths of vibrating air molecules and the mental representation of those frequencies and wavelengths as sound in the mind.

I seem to have this uncanny ability to sing in my head too.

Another thing I can do is dream, when I am asleep.

And these things I dream of, they sometimes seem to have meaning. As if I were talking to myself in some secret language. — Olivier5

Then why are there so many books written that claim to be able to interpret your dreams for you, and many people claim that those books have provided insight into their dreams and lives?

What is this secret language? Can it be translated into English, or is already in English because that is your native language?

There's one big difference though. I can check the frequency I'm humming. Only I know the sound of internal humming.
— frank
What does it mean to know the sound of internal humming when you can't check its frequency? If you need to know the frequency to know the sound and you can't check the frequency of the sound in your mind then how can you say that you know the sound in your mind? — Harry Hindu


You're not good to address this? — Harry Hindu

Sorry, I missed your post. I'm not sure what it means to know my own musical imagery beyond the phenomenon.

There's a little bit of research on the biological basis of it, but what does it really tell me if my motor cortex is active when I'm silently humming? Shrug.

I have awareness of a sound, but I know it's in my mind and not out loud. I don't know the frequency.

There's a little bit of research on the biological basis of it, but what does it really tell me if my motor cortex is active when I'm silently humming? Shrug. — frank

That maybe they are one and the same phenomena, just from different perspectives - one from the process of observing yourself outside of your body (like in a mirror or MRI scan), while the other is the process of being your body. Think about how different a grandfather clock looks from outside of it vs inside of it. You're looking at the same thing, just from different perspectives, so you get different information from different perspectives, and it appears as if you are looking at two distinctly different things, but that is because the information is different. Think about how your pet cat/dog appears to your different senses. Your senses provide different information about the same thing, so hearing your dog bark is different than seeing your dog bark, but it provides information about the same thing.

Could be. If you have access to pubmed you can look up "musical imagery".

There's reason to believe that the left side of your brain is "communicating" with itself when you experience musical imagery, and as Bongo suggested, this process may be involved in the broader perception of music.

IOW, with musical perception, your motor cortex is in charge. That's a hypothesis that fits what we know so far. This is contrary to an externalist account that wants to see something social or cultural as the starting point.

In short, the idea is that we communicate because of common biological structure, not because we share a society where language facilitates group activities.

See what I mean?

In short, the idea is that we communicate because of common biological structure, not because we share a society where language facilitates group activities.

See what I mean? — frank

If what you are saying is that we mentally represent the world in similar ways thanks to our similar biological functions, then sure, that seems obvious and is similar to what I have argued with people like Banno about before. But then you have to account for how the brain shapes itself when learning a language. Brains physically change when they learn. Once you learn one language some sounds become difficult to make in another language because of how your brain and tongue and lips have become accustomed to communicating in certain ways. For instance, many Hebrew speakers have trouble with the English R. It's not that they aren't hearing it like English speakers can, it's more to do with training your brain, tongue and lips to make the sound.

Personally, I think that this argument of nature vs nurture is absurd. It's really both working together, not just one or the other.

Personally, I think that this argument of nature vs nurture is absurd. It's really both working together, not just one or the other. — "Harry

I agree. When we think about evolution, we sometimes forget that life alters its own environments, sometimes drastically. The nurturing being is embedded in nature, part of it.

Then why are there so many books written that claim to be able to interpret your dreams for you, and many people claim that those books have provided insight into their dreams and lives? — Harry Hindu

That proves very little. There are many books written about aliens from another planet too, or about ghosts. It doesn't mean these books are right in everything they say.

What is this secret language? Can it be translated into English, or is already in English because that is your native language? — Harry Hindu

My native language is French. I can try to describe my dreams, irrespective of the language used for that. I can even try to decipher them, or somebody else's. But it's not easy.

That proves very little. There are many books written about aliens from another planet too, or about ghosts. It doesn't mean these books are right in everything they say. — Olivier5

LOL. How do you know what they're saying if it's about a private experience? If others claim that a book on dreams does give them insight into their dreams, who are you to say that it didn't? Either way you lose the private language argument.

My native language is French. I can try to describe my dreams, irrespective of the language used for that. I can even try to decipher them, or somebody else's. But it's not easy. — Olivier5

Why not, if it's YOUR OWN PRIVATE LANGUAGE? If you're having trouble interpreting the private language in your head, then maybe it's YOUR private language.

BTW, what forms do the symbols of your private language take? A public language takes the form of visual shapes and colors, and sounds. How do you know you have a private language? What form does it take for you to be aware of it?

If others claim that a book on dreams does give them insight into their dreams, who are you to say that it didn't? — Harry Hindu

I never said that it didn't.

If you're having trouble interpreting the private language in your head, then maybe it's YOUR private language. — Harry Hindu

Well yes, I guess that's the point.

If you're having trouble interpreting the private language in your head, then maybe it's YOUR private language.
— Harry Hindu

Well yes, I guess that's the point. — Olivier5

I mistyped. I meant to say it's NOT your private language if you're having trouble understanding it.

If others claim that a book on dreams does give them insight into their dreams, who are you to say that it didn't? — Harry Hindu

I never said that it didn't. — Olivier5

Yes you did:

That proves very little. There are many books written about aliens from another planet too, or about ghosts. It doesn't mean these books are right in everything they say. — Olivier5

If a book helps a person gain insight into their dream then how is that not proof that the book was right in what it said?

If I a book helps a person gain insight into their dream then how is that not proof that the book was right in what it saud? — Harry Hindu

Because reading a book involves a certain amount of self projection, of interpretation. Some people get their insight from reading the bible, others from reading the stars. I have nothing against it, I myself draw insights from books, including on dreams. The part I disagree with is when you say that "some book can interpret your dreams for you". This is having it vice versa: the reader interprets the book, and uses the book as a source of clues to try and interpret his dreams.

I meant to say it's NOT your private language if you're having trouble understanding it. — Harry Hindu

According to Freud it's the subconscious part of me speaking in metaphors. Doesn't that count as a private language?

I agree. When we think about evolution, we sometimes forget that life alters its own environments, sometimes drastically. The nurturing being is embedded in nature, part of it. — frank

Yes, or another way of looking at it is that we are all social individuals. We are individuals that find happiness in being social. It's why we can agree on many ethical standards except when it comes to choosing the group over the individual and vice versa (collectivism vs individualism).

Because reading a book involves a certain amount of self projection, of interpretation. Some people get their insight from reading the bible, others from reading the stars. I have nothing against it, I myself draw insights from books, including on dreams. The part I disagree with is when you say that "some book can interpret your dreams for you". This is having it vice versa: the reader interprets the book, and uses the book as a source of clues to try and interpret his dreams. — Olivier5

But the book is in a public language, written by someone else with their own private language, so how did author else come to understand the readers private language?

According to Freud it's the subconscious part of me speaking in metaphors. Does that count as a private language? — Olivier5

Speaking in metaphors means that you are using the native public language that you learned. So you're saying that your private language is your publuc native language?

so how did author else come to understand the readers private language? — Harry Hindu

He did not, not any more that some biblical prophet understood your particular predicament when you happen to read his verses and find them useful. The reader is only using the book as clues to understand himself.

Speaking in metaphors means that you are using the native public language that you learned. — Harry Hindu

That is only one of the many possible meanings of "speaking in metaphors", and not the one I intended. I meant the Freudian interpretation of dreams as expressing ideas (desires, fears usually) via a sort of confused theatrical play, often with composite characters.

Yes, or another way of looking at it is that we are all social individuals. We are individuals that find happiness in being social. It's why we can agree on many ethical standards except when it comes to choosing the group over the individual and vice versa (collectivism vs individualism). — Harry Hindu

Yep. I've actually been thinking a lot about that very issue lately, collective vs individual. All trails lead back to what we are: social creatures with a strong sense of indivuality.

He did not, not any more that some biblical prophet understood your particular predicament when you happen to read his verses and find them useful. The reader is only using the book as clues to understand himself. — Olivier5

So when you read people's posts on this forum you're not trying to understand what the writer meant when they authored those posts? If you're only projecting your own interpretation, then you're basically putting your own words in the writer's mouth. What would be the point of communicating with you?

That is only one of the many possible meanings of "speaking in metaphors", and not the one I intended. I meant the Freudian interpretation of dreams as expressing ideas (desires, fears usually) via a sort of confused theatrical play, often with composite characters. — Olivier5

So you just mean the language of shapes, colors, sounds, smells, tastes, and feelings - the language of nature that "selected" the vocabulary we all understand and use to be informed of the state of the world, and that was passed down to subsequent generations through heredity?

I am referring to this brilliant book by Freud, The Interpretation of Dreams. The idea is that one can interpret dreams through a specific procedure based on word association. I have tried the method many times, on myself and others, generally with success.

In this view of dreams, they are messages or concerns from our subconscious self. But for some reason, these messages are represented, acted out in scenes with characters.

I believe this comes close to a private language. But it's not one that uses standard words and grammar, it's more like some constantly invented, improvised theatrical art.